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So, how's beer trading going?

Discussion in 'Beer Trading Talk' started by Todd, Oct 29, 2012.

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  1. domtronzero

    domtronzero Aug 18, 2007 California

    Yah I get what you're saying. Beleive me, I've been around long enough to see the ebb and flow of trading mannerisms. And I can also say that I've seen a lot of noobs taking advantage of the trading forum lately. I don't chalk it up to noobism, I chalk it up to the "winning a trade" mentality that is all too rampant lately. It's getting quite out-of-hand.

    I like to help. I like to talk about bottle counts, availability, so on and so forth. It's fun and entertaining. However, I get tired of people not using the available resources and jumping into something they don't quite understand fully. It isn't rocket science, it isn't futures or trend following, or trailing stop-losses. It's simple. I have beer you want and you have beer I want. Sit back, relax, watch how it gets done, and get your feet wet before hunting walez bro.

    I don't subscribe to the trading forums for entertainment value like I know a lot of BAs do. But I do think that allowing comments in the ISO/FT forum certainly intimidates a lot of people from posting ridiculous trade offers and is definitely a valuable tool for keeping our community in check.

    The idea that noobs can be taken advantage of is silly. I don't believe in the thought that a vast majority of noobs are getting taken advantage of, trading their bottles of Don Q for 4-packs of KBS. People at that level of beer collecting know what they're dealing in. On the other hand, noobs that unknowingly trade their bottles of Chocolate Rain b1 for a couple bottles of Positive Contact (which also never happens) probably should do a bit of research before jumping in. Not research exclusively in the trading forums, but research in the beer community in general. That being said, those that know the caliber of beers like Fou' Foune and Armand & Tommy Blend that trade them for other hard to find limited brewery-only releases without holding them hostage are the ones that are truly doing it right.

    Self-moderation works wonders. If it's too hard to deal with than I recommend using Craigs List and eBay for your beer-related transactions. However, if you're willing to play by the rules and do it just like everybody else then welcome! Let's work out some trades :)
  2. Spider889

    Spider889 Mar 24, 2010 Ohio
    Beer Trader

    I agree with everything you're saying, but unfortunately that doesn't seem possible on BA for 2 reasons:

    1) For it to work fully, and to keep the Bros sane, the trading forum comments would have to be virtually un-moderated. Do you see that ever happening? Doubtful seems too weak a word.

    2) Related to #1, the community here can't seem to abide by the same values I mentioned that many "n00bs" or others lack online: common courtesy being the main one here. I'm all for a quick shaming of the guy who is unabashedly trying to auction off a fake bottle to the highest bidder. But it doesn't stop there, the community will turn that thread into a 90 reply epic of argument and insult.

    The spinoff effect is that the new guy who keeps hearing about Younger and Blabaer suddenly asks for them (innocently) in his first trade thread. Again the whole community descends on the guy insulting and assuming he's a cheater because his account is new. Yeah, he should have done his research a bit more, but we lose a community member for life because of the shitshow that ensued. Chasing away users (despite what some around here may think) is not going to help this site, the trading community, and the beer community survive and thrive.

    If we are going to revert to replies, I'd suggest the following:
    -no bumps
    -poster can allow or disallow replies at any time (so if too many chime in with unwelcome comments the thread can have replies turn off post-creation)
    -poster can delete the thread at any time
    -stricter protocols for posting and time-lapse
    -Go back to 2 (or 3, 4, whatever) maximum threads open at a given time​
    -auto-delete/close all trade threads with zero activity after a week (or some other timeline)​

    And of course this is all made much easier and more useful when inter-worked with a permanent site-hosted stickied Bad Trader List and the eventual trader feedback system.
    Retail1LO, Mandark and JohnGalt1 like this.
  3. domtronzero

    domtronzero Aug 18, 2007 California

    I like your line of reasoning.

    Couldn't have said it better myself.

    Hence, "No bumping with replies to threads in the ISO/FT forum." You don't like it? Move along.

    Probably shouldn't be asking for Younger or Blabaer in your first (30+) trade posts.

    This is not something I want to see. I absolutely do value new members and their contributions to this site. We need to keep fresh blood in here and it does nothing but expand the diversity of our community. I agree that chasing away new people from the beer scene is the last thing we need for our interests to fluorish.

    looks like we agree on more than one thing. This is exactly what I'd like to see happen.

    Time to crack open one last beer before bed. Cheers!

    Edit: Yah, it's gonna be another Kona Longboard Lager... :/
    Retail1LO likes this.
  4. Spider889

    Spider889 Mar 24, 2010 Ohio
    Beer Trader

    Drinking a Frangelic Mountain Brown. Wishing it was the '07 BCBS some guy just found in his parents' basement.

    Admittedly all of this exposition is likely wasted until after we see the feedback system. Once in place I feel like most/all of these problems would go away on their own.
    Auror and domtronzero like this.
  5. JohnGalt1

    JohnGalt1 Aug 10, 2005 Idaho
    Beer Trader

    I like this guy.
  6. Etan

    Etan Jul 11, 2011 Wisconsin

    So it's ok to ask for Younger after trade #40? :rolleyes:
    cavedave and domtronzero like this.
  7. OneBeertoRTA

    OneBeertoRTA Jan 2, 2010 California
    Beer Trader

    Spot on.

    I think if #3 is reinstated we should add in the sticky what classifies as threadshitting. Someone saying FBS is a shelf beer located all through out IL and can be found with little effort while Citra is a 6 bottle brewery only release in the middle of nowhere is not threadshitting. Someone saying you can order the ISO beer online is also not threadshitting, it is being helpful and promoting advocacy. I can not imagine any real beer advocate being against that.
    ASUBeer likes this.
  8. EdwardFortyHands

    EdwardFortyHands May 3, 2012 Iowa

    How about a stochastic difference model that takes into account beer rarity, value, and other factors to assign units to a beer from 1-1000. These can then be used to sum over trades and allow for a fair and balanced metric for comparison across proposed deals.

    A little linear regression explaining the idea of trade value would be great and free up some frozen markets. Because right now we are experiencing assymetric information bias.
    rrryanc, sarro, kscaldef and 2 others like this.
  9. trancesk8er

    trancesk8er Jan 19, 2011 California
    Beer Trader

    I think keeping the replies out is a good move ultimately. I think linking to a bad traders list is an absolute must.
    Great job guys keep it up
  10. domtronzero

    domtronzero Aug 18, 2007 California

    I think trade #33 is acceptable ISO: younger protocol. If you're looking to go big or go home, trade #41 is acceptable ISO: Ephraim protocol.

    Edit: I didn't know growlers of Ephraim are still getting around. Hmmmmm... My entire world is flipped upside down now.
    Etan likes this.
  11. Pelican5

    Pelican5 Feb 4, 2012 California
    Beer Trader

    Btw, thanks so much for running the site in the first place guys. I think we all just want it to be as good as it can based on our own opinions. Having an open discussion like this is by far the best way to achieve just that, a consensus of what works best. An open community, especially including moderater interaction, self regulates and ultimately benefits. Same as open source code ( im an artist and web designer :) ). Anyways thanks again for putting in the time and effort to run an epic online beer community. There are soooo many standup BA's on this site.

    Cheers to you guys!
  12. gklover1

    gklover1 Oct 18, 2009 Colorado
    Beer Trader

    Okay, my turn.

    Yes on 101 sticky.

    Yes on bad trader list sticky.

    Love the idea of a Beer Price Check thread, to clean up Beer Trading Help thread.

    Love only 3 trade posts a week.

    Instead of bringing back comments in ISO, how about a Like/Dislike option (instead of just Likes)?

    The last two above promote community. People who spend time on BA get to know each other/build relationships. If a person (noob or otherwise) is looking at an ISO, and it has a ton of dislikes, or most of the dislikes are from veterans (or both) they would think twice. They might even reach out to the folks disliking it for an opinion why. (Whoah, say what? That sounds like building relationships!!!) like I did back when I was a noob, if they ACTUALLY care about the community, they will start researching and learning who others are.

    If the # of ISOs is limited again, well, I get most of my trades done directly w/o an ISO. This obviously happens more often with relationships. But you have to build up to that. When I first came in, there were ISO limits. This forced me to pick and choose my ISOs more carefully, and do more research to make that happen. In addition, with all the garbage offers now, if you combine limits and dislikes, this will counteract said garbage.

    Hope that is helpful.
    johnyb likes this.
  13. Nightfall

    Nightfall Aug 16, 2006 Greece

    Of course #1,2 are a great addition.

    My thoughts on "Replies at ISO:FT" :

    Replies can usually be very helpful, as long as there is some self control, which unfortunately as we have seen in the past is not always the case. Moderating such a busy forum is obviously a pain the a**, constant bumping is also an unwanted effect which also requires moderation. Sometime a bump could be in order, if for example there is an ISO:FT for B.A Moby Dick Ale aged with unicorn tear drops and fresh Edelweiss stems in Crystal Magnum Bottle #1 of 11, during rush hour 10-15 topics per hour are being posted in the ISO:FT forum, many are local 6pack for local 6pack, or something that can be completed within the hour, then the Moby Dick is lost in page 3-4, etc without being resolved, and the OP wants to make a revised offer.

    Not allowing replies solves the moderation , the unwanted bumping, the smartassing/threadshitting problems but other problems occur. No additional helpful info can be added, no revised offer,no indication if the trade is completed, the BM increase a lot on some occasions (f.ex instead of writing on a post thanks for all the offers, this one is closed, you have to send a BM to anybody who sent one if you don't want to appear a total as***, or you keep getting BMd even after it is closed).

    So far it is a 50-50 situation both in pros/cons and member opinions. A good solution could be to keep it a "no reply" forum BUT allow the OP to change the title and add: [Completed] (and the Completed threads are removed 1-2 times per day) or allow the OP to delete the thread himself once it is completed. That way only open ISO:FT will remain and no bumping will be needed. An extra plus would be to allow the OP one post or edit after 1 day for example for a revised offer. All of the above of course if the solution can be done using existing forum settings and no extra heavy core programming is required.

    Just my 2cts.


  14. osubeerkind

    osubeerkind Jan 12, 2009 Ohio
    Beer Trader


    Agreed on #1 and #2

    Suggestion for #3 - A
    The following is how a forum I used to frequent was run. (though I suspect it will be a lot of programing)

    They had comments on ISO/FT forum, but this was sorted by original post date, instead of most recent comment.

    Posters could only start a thread in that forum 2 or 3 times a week.

    There was also a "bump button". This would be a button available to the original poster on their original post. Every 24 hrs the OP could click this button and it would move their post back to the top of the forum.

    Lastly, they also had a system where you could pay a little money for their post to be "stuck" at the top of the forum for X number of days.

    Suggestion for #3 - B
    A more simple solution to the commenting vs not commenting is to allow it up to the OP. Have a box that he could check when making his original post. If he doesn't want commenting then the site will automatically not allow comments on his thread. Though using this I would also be in favor of the sorting by original post date instead of most recent comment date.

    Again, I think these may be a little more in depth compared to what you are looking for.
    dvelcich likes this.
  15. cbeer88

    cbeer88 Sep 5, 2007 Massachusetts

    Crazy idea that I understand may be difficult to implement, but seems more or less perfect for everybody:

    The owner of each ISO/FT post gets to moderate their own post and also decide whether or not to allow replies. (Default is to allow) If threadshitting arises, they have the ability to delete comments, and even block the poster from that thread. Or just lock it up for everyone if they don't want to deal with it.
  16. Spider889

    Spider889 Mar 24, 2010 Ohio
    Beer Trader

    Your sarcasm is only funny since you fail to get my point.

    Asking for Younger is obviously a newbie mistake. It's never correct to ask for it but just as the new guy shoots for the moon by asking for Blabaer, he does so out of ignorance. Asking for a rare DONG release is also due to ignorance. In this case there's no difference.

    If you think belittling a new member is appropriate here just say so, you don't have to try to belittle an existing one to make your case...
    domtronzero likes this.
  17. JulianB

    JulianB Feb 1, 2012 South Carolina

    I've been registered for a little while, been lurking even longer than that, and I still haven't started trading through the mail, although I've done some in-person trades. Part of that is not yet being willing to commit to the expense/process of shipping, part of that is building up a cellar with some trading ammo, but a big part is that I still feel like I'm getting a suitable base of information and knowledge before I jump in. Reading old comments, both in the ISO/FT forum and in the General/Help forum, has been a big part of that. I'm sure that most of the threadshitting comments have been deleted which is why I don't see them, but a lot of the comments I've read on old ISO/FT posts have been helpful to me in the learning process. They help create a "marketplace of ideas" that allows for the free flow of information.
  18. kscaldef

    kscaldef Jun 11, 2010 Oregon
    Beer Trader

    No, no, no.

    Completed trades are exactly what we do need a permanent record of, not hundreds of lopsided, never-gonna-happen offers that give people skewed ideas of what is reasonable. A filtering mechanism makes sense for browsing and searching, but we absolutely shouldn't delete completed trades.
  19. mikecharley

    mikecharley Nov 6, 2008 Pennsylvania
    Beer Trader

    How about making it so that the op can check off a box marking the trade "completed". On the ISO main page, these threads would be marked with a green checkmark, so that you don't need to go into each thread to see if it got done or not. You could just scroll down, and get a relatively good idea on trade values.
  20. jjheinrichs

    jjheinrichs Apr 13, 2010 Wisconsin

    Sorry, I guess that post should have warranted some explanation.
    domtronzero likes this.
  21. gklover1

    gklover1 Oct 18, 2009 Colorado
    Beer Trader

    One minor problem...what if the trade was modified. How is that to be reflected??
  22. daryk77

    daryk77 Jun 16, 2005 District of Columbia
    Beer Trader

    And I would say 9 times out of 10 the trade is modified from the original in some way.
    franklinn and gklover1 like this.
  23. Photekut

    Photekut Mar 31, 2006 Tennessee

    Some good ideas ( I am commenting directly on your point in part B. and another person in part A)
    but in reality...

    If I am one of the problem BAs ( new and old ) which is making this discussion necessary, I am going to:

    A. not allow any comments in my ISO:FT threads if that is an option.
    I do not want to hear that my trade may be way off because even though I know it, there is a CHANCE.
    I do not want uneducated people seeing others comment that the trade may be way off ( same reasoning ).
    I have been a bad trader and someone might warn others about me in my thread.
    I am new, do not know better but am thin skinned and cannot filter out BS for the nugget of knowledge.
    there are many other reasons...

    B. mark the trade as complete even if it does not get completed if that is an option.
    So the next day when I post my 2nd bottle of Dark Lord ( I have 16 more bottles because I paid people to come with me ) those who do not know any better will only have a frame of reference that similar trades happened and may make a deal they should not be making.

    BA looking to get their feet wet in the trading forum:
    Gee... Dark Lord ( for example ) must be really limited if it has traded 5 times for wale X...
    I guess lll trade my wale X for it.

    When in reality dark lord is ransomed for gold when in reality they make so much of it is might as well be a limited shelf beer and the trades never happened.

    I hate that there are people out there like that, but I bet most BAs that frequent the ISO:FT forums can name at least 5 off the top of their heads. ( not just new BAs either )

    domtronzero likes this.
  24. Etan

    Etan Jul 11, 2011 Wisconsin

    Whoa there, I wasn't belittling anyone...the joke was simply that what Dom said ("Probably shouldn't be asking for Younger or Blabaer in your first (30+) trade posts.") could imply to a noob reading it that you can get Younger (eventually), even though he was simply saying that you need experience to know what you can and can't get. Just a joke about the syntax, not about the argument or you or anything else.
    domtronzero likes this.
  25. barleywinefiend

    barleywinefiend Nov 22, 2007 Washington

    Leave No. 3 as is. The last thing I want is someone threadshitting and jacking for my personal ISO. If I wanted a BA's opinion or reply to my thread it would read "ISO: Need your opinion for a trade". Too many people put in their two cents worth when it's not wanted, warranted or simply unbased/incorrect. If you don't agree, shut your hole, move on and let the ISO be.
  26. barleywinefiend

    barleywinefiend Nov 22, 2007 Washington

    Said douchebag public posts can be undermining your public ISO, perhaps because he is ignorant, a douche, or whatever. At least when I get a ridiculous beermail I can delete it and not have someones blabbering attached to my post.
    cosmo4u and Brew33 like this.
  27. Agold

    Agold Mar 13, 2010 Pennsylvania

    So I say person x is a bad trader or y beer is a shelf beer or z beer is infected and the OP deletes my comment? Simple is best. Allow comments. Add a community mod. Done.
    shyhenry likes this.
  28. cbeer88

    cbeer88 Sep 5, 2007 Massachusetts

    Those examples are treading the line of threadshitting anyway, so you would get deleted by the mod regardless. (Especially calling something a "shelf beer")
  29. Agold

    Agold Mar 13, 2010 Pennsylvania

    Seriously? None of those comments are threadshitting. If im trading away an 09 abyss what is wrong with warning people about an infection. What if jojo posts an ISO? What if I heard of Pliny and didn't know anything about trading and was offering limited stuff for it? Wouldn't it be nice if some kind BA could come in and give me and the rest of the community info. Or if I was offering a local obscure but on the shelf impy stout and looking for "similar limited stouts" wouldn't it be nice if someone would chime in and let everyone know it's a shelf beer. And what's the harm to anyone? If your ISO is solid you get it done anyway.
    Photekut likes this.
  30. cbeer88

    cbeer88 Sep 5, 2007 Massachusetts

    The entire concept of "shelf beer" serves no beneficial purpose, and it's not a term that should even exist, for numerous reasons. But dropping it on somebody else's ISO/FT? That is the textbook definition of threadshitting. I've traded brewery releases for shelf beers and shelf beers for brewery releases - both more times than I can count. It's nobody's place to chime in and say "that's a shelf beer", as if that term holds any weight towards anything relevant...

    The infected thing is more of a gray area. When accurate it is fine. But I've seen it inaccurately used more often than not. People love to say things like "I had a bottle of this recently and it is over the hill". Or, "That thing is infected - be careful" when in reality it has 2 known bad bottles out of 20,000.

    A known bad trader posting in the ISO/FT is extremely rare, and if it happens, it should be brought to the Bros attention pronto.
  31. TMoney2591

    TMoney2591 Apr 21, 2009 Illinois

    Who cares if they're offering limited stuff for some (relatively) easy-to-get Pliny? If I offered a Rare for a sixer of Modus, how am I wrong? There is no objective trade value to these beers, simply the desire of both parties involved.

    If I had my druthers, ISO/FT would remain reply-less, and any tade value threads would be relegated to their own sub-forum so only those beer-brokers (as opposed to beer-traders) can have their fun arbitrarily citing this stat or that spec to determine "values" apparently inherent in the bottles.

    And I don't tend to BM anybody regarding "mis-balanced" trades, but if I did, I wouldn't tell them it's not gonna happen because their beer isn't rare/special enough to garner what they're asking for, but rather tell them that apparently beer trading is all about returns on investments and landing the most limited, most special beers possible and that their beers just aren't up to snuff in the eyes of these brokers. Dammit, people, let's bring trading back to traders and away from brokers!
  32. Agold

    Agold Mar 13, 2010 Pennsylvania

    You can do whatever the hell you want but if I thought the only way for me to get it was to offer something limited I would be happy if someone posted in my thread and let me know I didn't have to. If I still wanted to hooray for me. But either way. Who cares. I, like most of you have traded limited stuff for easy to get stuff and vice versa. However, I went into it with my eyes open. All someone's response does is give more people more info. The benefits definitely outweigh someone being mildly irritated by a few responses. The vast majority of responses are on topic and therefore not threadshitting. And if someone gets more than mildly irritated by a response to a thread I don't think we are having the same conversation.
  33. TMoney2591

    TMoney2591 Apr 21, 2009 Illinois

    Generally speaking, I agree that more information tends to be better than less. However, my point above was that allowing replies in the ISO/FT forum isn't going to make trading any better (I think I'm using a "spiritual"/holistic definition for that), but rather it's going to keep taking things down the wrong road by reinforcing the idea that some beers are intrinsically worth more than others and that a kind of beer value caste system truly exists.

    Maybe I'm too much of an idealist, but not only allowing that to happen but also helping it along just seems downright wrong in my eyes.

    I will concede, though, that anyone ought to be allowed to trade for whatever with whatever and with whomever, regardless of the opinions of others, so my opinion on this is technically just as meaningless as those that sit on the opposite end of the philosophical spectrum. Still...
    tjohn2401 likes this.
  34. ShogoKawada

    ShogoKawada May 31, 2009 Pennsylvania

    the number of troll/parody/insane offers is through the roof. If I was a new trader, I'd be so bewildered I don't know what I'd do.

    I know you've been back and forth on this one, but if you're leery of moderation, let some users who have been around the block a bit moderate.

    I'd prefer if it was an active user, but not an active trader, so there's no conflict of interest. Someone who's posting huge trade offers all the time prob. shouldn't be moderating the trading forums.
    ASUBeer, domtronzero and Spider889 like this.
  35. ShogoKawada

    ShogoKawada May 31, 2009 Pennsylvania

    PS I think there needs to be some serious overhaul for the format- I've seen a HUGE uptick of beer trading on facebook as people leave BA as there's no good way to discuss trades.

    And I know the reasons why replies were nixed... just sayin'.
    Gosox8787 likes this.
  36. SaisonFest

    SaisonFest Aug 6, 2012 Washington

    I know a lot of people stopped using BA and started using Rate Beer because of the change to how the trade forums are currently with no replies and asinine offers here. I just went to Facebook.
  37. Spider889

    Spider889 Mar 24, 2010 Ohio
    Beer Trader

    Hey my bad man. I was the one who originally used those two beers as examples and in my quick skimming of the thread I must have thought you were saying that in response to my comment.
  38. Etan

    Etan Jul 11, 2011 Wisconsin

    No problem, I can see how it could have been confusing.
  39. Levitation

    Levitation Aug 7, 2009 California

    all right, all right, i'll do it. jesus. stop begging.
    Gosox8787, Agold, immobilisme and 2 others like this.
  40. BigTomZ

    BigTomZ Apr 14, 2009 Virginia

    Honestly, there was more entertainment value with the replies being allowed in the ISO:FT forum. I visited the forum more frequently. Now I don't really log in much unless I am working on a trade myself.
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