So now that threadshitting is back in full-effect ...

Discussion in 'Beer Trading Talk' started by Todd, Apr 25, 2012.

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  1. cosmicevan

    cosmicevan Poo-Bah (3,331) Dec 13, 2009 New York
    Beer Trader

    Noobs aside, yesterday I replied (thread$h@t) on a FT post from someone on the site for 3+years involving rare for dirty horse +. I didn't see how it all turned out, but things started getting ugly fast and needless to say I got a hearty slap on the wrist for opening my drunk mouth to what I thought was a troll post. I suppose the OP was serious since it resulted in deletion and punishment (ie got reported...if it doesn't get reported then it doesn't get modded right?)

    So who is to say what is pointless? Who is to say what is fair? This kind of stuff gets into the territory that concerns me...especially if the mods are active traders. You trade wi a mod, crush them with a box and suddenly get some leniency in grey areas and inner circles start including mods. One thing for mods to respond to flagged posts, different story for them to start judging what posts are pointless. Mow many posts will get deleted as pointless after DL day or any other release? This can definitely prevent hyping of some new releases, but do we need someone to do this or can we let the trading market dictate what deserves hype beyond $4$/brewery or limited 4 brewery/limited? What about over $ in locals 4 limited? Will the mod get to decide how much over $4$ is valid vs pointless?

    These are the scenarios that make me think that post only is the way to go. No headaches, no grey area, just letting ppl trade thier beer. I really don't see why that model isn't reinstated. To me that was the golden age of trading in recent memory. You want to trade beer, then dig through the forum and find a deal close to reasonable from your perspective and converse. People were way more reasonable since it was harder to get replies to your posts and all the trades I made at that time were fair and worked out without all the BS of the peanut gallery. Made some great trade partners during that time and sent out and received some of my best boxes.

    In my opinion if ppl aren't willing to go beyond page 1, then they don't really want to trade. You can mark the forum as read when you read through it to ensure you have seen what is new since your last visit. At most there are 3 or 4 pages per day. Also you can always post an ISO if you don't want to look
    williamjbauer likes this.
  2. stupac2

    stupac2 Zealot (518) Feb 22, 2011 California
    Beer Trader

    Well that's off the table. At this point arguing for it is completely pointless.
  3. MarkIntihar

    MarkIntihar Initiate (0) Mar 17, 2010 Michigan

    Do you mean in negotiation or in their ISOs?
  4. cosmicevan

    cosmicevan Poo-Bah (3,331) Dec 13, 2009 New York
    Beer Trader

    Negotiation. The isos were outlandish. I found if someone was trading something I wanted and I took a look at their wants and Bmed them we would make it work. My trade volume at that time was crazy, probably because I was one of the few who figured it out, but if someone posted a beer for trade and were looking for something unreasonable, they got no replies. I replied and suggested working something out and 7/10 times I worked something out. With post only and the state of the isos that was the only way to trade, everyone asked for the moon because that is what everyone asked for, so when you wrote them you were one of 2 or 3 bites so why not talk it out, worst case, nothing ges traded, sometimes the trades had nothing to do with the Iso at all.

    Sort of like Craigslist where someone posts something you want and you negotiate. If you ever used Craigslist you'd know only ridiculously cheap stuff goes for the listing price, and is gone within minutes. It isn't that hard. This is how the world works. Ever buy a house? If so, look at it that way, there are comps, but they don't always mean much. It is about finding someone interested in what you have and then working out a deal.
  5. cbeer88

    cbeer88 Crusader (719) Sep 5, 2007 Massachusetts

    I kind of look at it this way - anyone with Rare or Dirty Horse more or less knows what the hell they're doing, so there's no reason to get involved. To me it's really all about education - it's obvious when somebody doesn't know what they're doing. They joined the site 3 days ago, and their first post is something like "FT: DFH 120 ISO: Kate the Great".

    Post only was no golden age. In fact, that's precisely when shit started to go downhill fast. See my threadshitting thread for the hypothetical reasons behind that.
  6. cosmicevan

    cosmicevan Poo-Bah (3,331) Dec 13, 2009 New York
    Beer Trader

    Shame that post was deleted, the OP said that since they were offering up their precious rare, they expected 2 or more from a List that included dirty horse, blabber, ddg (I believe) and others of similar stature. This person was on the site for 3+ years taboot. Anyone with dirty horse probably knows what they are doing but any schmoe could get Rare...heck i've even got a small handful of them still. Having beer just means you have beer. Apparently being on the site for 3 years means you were on the site for 3 years, not necessarily that you ever ventured into trading or care about perceived values.

    Also, in your scenario is it appropriate to ask how many 120s? Some would say yes, others would say no.
  7. cpinto6

    cpinto6 Initiate (0) Feb 25, 2010 Georgia

    That's why I say post facts and let the traders interested interpret what they want from it. Opinions should be sent by private conversations. If the noobs trade doesn't get done then it should be obvious why to them by looking at the facts posted if its a lopsided trade.
    claaark13 likes this.
  8. CaptainTripps

    CaptainTripps Initiate (0) Aug 8, 2010 Oregon

    I think the thread shitting gives the trade forum character if you ask me. Mods are risky because you run the risk of producing power tripping, biased assholes. If you don't want the comments, don't allow people to comment.
    claaark13, cosmicevan and cavedave like this.
  9. ewright

    ewright Initiate (0) Oct 25, 2007 North Carolina

    After reading this thread, I just have a couple observations.

    1. In some respects, moderation is like being a politician in a micro-society. Those who desire power are exactly the people who shouldn't have it. Much like most of our politicians! For that reason (and those mentioned by other posters) identifying mods will be difficult.

    2. No matter how you design a system, smart (and possibly not so smart) people will find a way to game it. There is no perfect solution, only various degrees of "good enough".

    I'm not touching the first point, but for HOW to handle moderation, I think the option of publicly flagging a post as under moderation is a good start. Removal should the require approval of at least two mods plus final acceptance by Jason or Todd. A little public humiliation with swift penalties for repeat offenders *might* be a sufficient deterrent, particularly if penalties (timeout, permanent ban) are clearly spelled out.
    AleWatcher and cavedave like this.
  10. cavedave

    cavedave Poo-Bah (2,290) Mar 12, 2009 New York
    Beer Trader

    Well jeepers that FT you reference was great, wasn't it? Didn't you just get through saying that a post like that was just a perfect opening for someone to make a private offer of something more reasonable?

    Seriously, though, with post only there are some who would have seen that and instantly thought their Rare was on a Blabaer or DH level. Multiply that by the entire forum, and you see what has led us to today. Do you get it now? Post only wasn't the solution, it was the problem. It wasn't the road around the cliff, it was the shortcut to the cliff. You say you did well under that system. Maybe you did. I didn't. Most others didn't. And the community as a whole is left with the stock market mentality of the trading community as a result of it, with even more profit searchers in the community, and semi-relatedly, with even more mules on line at releases, even more impossibility of getting small batch beers at store, and threads like the ones we now see asking how to fix it. There never was a way to make trading perfect, but post only certainly is the way over the cliff for BA's trading community.
  11. cpinto6

    cpinto6 Initiate (0) Feb 25, 2010 Georgia

    I agree wholeheartedly with what you're saying. Things got WAY worse when it went post only. I think the bros realized it and that's why they wanna make the replies in the trading forum work by finding a good option to curb unnecessary threadshitting.
  12. Rempo

    Rempo Initiate (0) Jan 18, 2010 Indiana

    Keep fighting the good fight. I'd rather see noobs posting for beers they've heard about and are interested in than a bunch of people telling them that Stone IRS can't land anything. People have taken 'trading value' way too far on this site. Moderation should be focused on threadshitting, not on deleting a perfectly acceptable trade thread.
  13. MarkIntihar

    MarkIntihar Initiate (0) Mar 17, 2010 Michigan

    I think the only time it would be acceptable for a mod to jump in about "trade value" would be if someone bumps their thread asking why it's not getting done. Then a mod could jump in and say "well, the Founders Porter you're trying to trade is available year-round, off the shelf, in a lot of different markets, so most people who have BCBS are probably looking for something a bit more limited, like KBS". That seems perfectly acceptable to me, and you're helping out not only the OP but also anyone new who stumbles across the thread. The mod should never say something like "this will never get done", as that doesn't really help anyone.

    I don't think anyone here is suggesting that mods should be actively jumping in and trying to dictate trade value. Rather, deal with people who can't help themselves (read: behave), and be helpful when questions arise. I'd see it more as an easier way to make sure a thread doesn't get out of hand, as the Bros. obviously aren't always watching the forums.
  14. Rempo

    Rempo Initiate (0) Jan 18, 2010 Indiana

    I think they should be actively moderating the people trying to dictate trade value.
  15. MarkIntihar

    MarkIntihar Initiate (0) Mar 17, 2010 Michigan

    I agree, but it can sometimes be difficult to determine when someone is trying to influence the "value" or when someone is just trying to be (albeit, unsolicited) helpful.
  16. JM03

    JM03 Initiate (0) Nov 12, 2010 Ohio

    This is also hard to do because everyone values everything differently. Other than the obvious white whales, everything else isnt as black and white.. Someone who has never had to chance to try KBS might value it much higher than someone who is sitting on a case+ of it at home.
  17. Rempo

    Rempo Initiate (0) Jan 18, 2010 Indiana

    Which is exactly why people need to keep their (unsolicited) opinions to themselves (or to BM).
    ncaudle, Pahn, ShogoKawada and 2 others like this.
  18. JM03

    JM03 Initiate (0) Nov 12, 2010 Ohio

    Exactly :wink:
  19. Sarlacc83

    Sarlacc83 Crusader (752) Mar 2, 2008 Oregon
    Beer Trader

    I was using the IRS post as an example, not because I didn't think it couldn't get done, but because the last time I looked (last night) it was up to 15 posts repeating the same point that the trade wasn't going to get done, and that was after at least 4 or 5 snarky comments that were deleted. This is why I think having specialized moderators to intervene helps the community. It's not about dictating trade value, but about having a trusted voice.

    I agree with cbeer88 - laissez faire is great in theory - but we've seen that it hasn't worked. I think there's a good middle ground between libertarian and authoritarian by way of user education. Teach a man to fish and all that.
  20. nanobrew

    nanobrew Initiate (0) Dec 31, 2008 California

    true, but I don't think the responses in that thread were about "trade value". It was more of a "here let me give you some tips, especially about availability/distribution/Venn diagram"

    100% agree, I don't think anyone is really arguing differently.
  21. Sarlacc83

    Sarlacc83 Crusader (752) Mar 2, 2008 Oregon
    Beer Trader

    This is why I think the forums have started to devolve and instant whales have become more prevalent. (CBS, King Henry, KBS, probably Dark Lord 2012.) People see a 1 bottle limit on the shelf and automatically assume the beer is incredibly, super rare rather than over distributed. So when a brewery only release like Beatification happens, the opinion becomes that "1 of my 3 bottles I had to work super hard to get" is worth 2X what your bottle is, even if the bottle counts and dollar amounts are similar. (And then even worse, "It's still on shelves. Why won't anybody trade me 6? Or proxy 6 for me? You're JERKS!) I don't think a lot of new traders appreciate that most bottles require a lot of effort on all ends. If they did, I think you'd see a lot of the groundswell start to decrease.
    alwaysanswerb and claaark13 like this.
  22. Agold

    Agold Defender (641) Mar 13, 2010 Pennsylvania

    I'm curious, is there a feature on the forums that allows you to show disciplinary history on a member's profile, or put a link to that there? I think it would be good to see something like:
    userX was warned for post y on date z
  23. tjohn2401

    tjohn2401 Initiate (53) May 26, 2010 Michigan
    Beer Trader

    My vote is for Shogo, Rempo, Kzoo, and also a west coaster and someone overseas.
    claaark13 likes this.
  24. Photekut

    Photekut Initiate (0) Mar 31, 2006 Tennessee

    I may have missed it, but have mods already been chosen?

    Some people are no longer "members" but are "site editors"

    I really do not like the idea of Mods no matter who they are, but I guess I am in the vast minority.
    cosmicevan likes this.
  25. cosmicevan

    cosmicevan Poo-Bah (3,331) Dec 13, 2009 New York
    Beer Trader

    in a post only environment, yes...where replies are available not so much since everyone will jump on the initial post and dictate what should get what. and if i wanted rare and someone posted that they had it for stuff i didn't have, i could still converse and try to work with them (although i would probably not reach out to someone looking for dirty horse for it). you never get offers for stuff that you aren't looking for when you post a FT?

    this happens even still today without post only. think you know what a DL is "worth?" check out what the trade forum looks like next week. the only difference will be that those who have DL will chime in on how it should trade for more...those who want it will say that you are asking too much.

    the problem existed before post only, that's why it was tried out. perhaps it wasn't the solution, but the problem existed before and being on the side of typically feeling that if a post is silly it will just die a quick death, i liked it. unfortunately the good FT posts died the same quick death. the only problem with post only is that there was no way for people to chime in on how ridiculous an offer was to discourage others from following like sheep and no way to know if things got done or one person reaching for the moon encouraged others to reach for the moon (but that still happens and everyone likes to chime in on what should get done or shouldn't get done). i don't think that the public flogging and fairness police method of today is any better. in fact it gives more attention to silly FTs and ultimately creates more babysitting for the bros. not to mention people who like to trade $4$ are suddenly informed that they should be asking for more because values get inflated.

    perhaps a good solution would be post only in combination with a feedback system where details can be entered on what got done that is searchable? probably too much work to make something like that happen and too many corner cases since things aren't always 1 for 1, but if there was a way for you to see what DL traded for you'd know what to ask for and what to give up.

    i don't know how to fix the trade forums or if they can be fixed. moderators could work depending on what their actually moderating/responsible for, but at the end of the day, if you want to make trades the best way is to establish trading partners. getting the wants/gots from the beer listing page up and running again would be a good start, then you could just converse with someone who has something on their gots that you want and avoid all the drama of the trade forum.
  26. cavedave

    cavedave Poo-Bah (2,290) Mar 12, 2009 New York
    Beer Trader

    Gosh. Pahn at least has started giving TLDR's at the end for his circuitous jaunts of excessitude that could neatly be summed up in 2 sentences. IMHO this sums up your opinion on this matter.

    "perhaps a good solution would be post only in combination with a feedback system where details can be entered on what got done that is searchable?"

    "the only problem with post only is that there was no way for people to chime in on how ridiculous an offer was to discourage others from following like sheep" <----- Ya think? This is me now. Sorry couldn't resist.

    I think your idea is fine, Mr Goldberg, btw can I call you Rube?

    I will merely say the obvious, that the system we have in place accomplishes that, and so much more, in so much a better way, and the suggestion you make cannot be done without hacking code for this one forum, as mentioned by Todd.
  27. claaark13

    claaark13 Zealot (504) Nov 29, 2007 Indiana
    Beer Trader

    Without comments in the ISO/FT, the only way that n00bs (and, unfortunately, some more experienced traders in some cases) will be able to dictate trade value is through a source such as eBay. That's not a world that I want to live in.

    Knowing that your posts are completely open to the scrutiny of the community makes people think before they post. More people will look into bottle counts, prices of bottles, distribution/availability of bottles, demand of bottles, quality of bottles (tasty beer, crappy beer, infected beer), etc. There is no exact science to bottle values, but that is a great start. Then, as a whole, the ISO/FT forum will theoretically become more intelligent. If that is taken away, there is no accountability.

    In a sense, the ability to reply in that forum helps moderate the forum. Things that hurt the forum and turn people away are personal attacks and obscene comments. If someone gets angry and cries "Wolf!!!!" over a reply to their post that indicates/questions bottle counts or availability, they shouldn't be posting on the internet, let alone the trade forum.
    cbeer88 and Photekut like this.
  28. LostTraveler

    LostTraveler Initiate (0) Oct 28, 2011 Maine

    Mods going to be able to move threads when they are in the wrong group/subculture- bc that would be really nice.
  29. cbeer88

    cbeer88 Crusader (719) Sep 5, 2007 Massachusetts

    Which is what is already happening right now. If I had a bottle of KBS for every time I've heard somebody try to reference Ebay values in a trade in the last 90 days I'd never need to drink anything else...
    claaark13 and Pahn like this.
  30. maximum12

    maximum12 Poo-Bah (3,614) Jan 21, 2008 Minnesota
    Beer Trader

    One man's threadshitting is another man's valuable information. Defining it clearly is close to impossible.

    I much prefer the forums as they are now, but I'm pretty libertarian in that regard. Unless something has clearly crossed some kind of bright line (personal information, threats, positive references to the NY Yankees, etc.) I'd rather the sandbox just be left open for us to play in.
    tewaris, bugdoc and Crawfordesquire like this.
  31. nanobrew

    nanobrew Initiate (0) Dec 31, 2008 California

    the funny/interesting part is when they say "beer A has an ebay cost of $$, so I should get 4x beer B" without ever taking into account ebay cost of beer B. Though this is all moot because ebay typically is a bad place to start with value anyways
  32. Retail1LO

    Retail1LO Initiate (0) May 4, 2011 Pennsylvania

    A few things I'd like to see happen, although not all of them would be necessary if one or two were in place.

    Go back to the limit of "x" number of ISO/FT posts per week. Some people seem to post a couple a day.
    Get rid of replies.
    Don't bump threads when they're replied to.

    I'd be happy with any or all of those ideas.
    cosmicevan likes this.
  33. stupac2

    stupac2 Zealot (518) Feb 22, 2011 California
    Beer Trader

    For shelf beer, yeah it's pretty bad. It's not terrible for out-of-production stuff, but generally people can just go with their gut for that anyway.
  34. MasterSki

    MasterSki Site Editor (6,451) Dec 25, 2006 Ontario (Canada)
    Subscriber Beer Trader

    JR - I'm a site editor, but I have no powers in the forums. I can just fix beer names, ABVs, place addresses, etc.
  35. MarkIntihar

    MarkIntihar Initiate (0) Mar 17, 2010 Michigan

    I've recently seen a lot of "This is a great offer, this should definitely get done!" type posts and am wondering if these should also be flagged. By interjecting their own opinion, people seem to be opening up others' legitimate offers for debate. It's also completely unnecessary, as the OP in that situation obviously knows his offer is solid.
    cosmicevan likes this.
  36. JM03

    JM03 Initiate (0) Nov 12, 2010 Ohio

    I agree. Almost every trade now has either the replies of negativity, or the replies of "great offer" / "I wish i had that beer because i would do this".. etc..

    I am not sure how I feel about them. Either way, I am not sure they are necessary.
  37. cosmicevan

    cosmicevan Poo-Bah (3,331) Dec 13, 2009 New York
    Beer Trader

    agreed. if you think something is great and should get done, make the trade. if you don't have the beer being asked for in the trade, then there shouldn't be a comment.
    Alpar likes this.
  38. Sarlacc83

    Sarlacc83 Crusader (752) Mar 2, 2008 Oregon
    Beer Trader

    It seems to me that a lot of the "This a great trade and should get done" comments are usually about offers that won't be completed. I wonder how many people want to see said offer get done because they have the bottle being traded, and want to see if they can use it to trade up?
  39. MarkIntihar

    MarkIntihar Initiate (0) Mar 17, 2010 Michigan

    Exactly. Opens it up for people with similar beers to keep bumping the OP's thread so it can get done, in hopes they can then turn around and copycat his post. If you (the general you reading this, not cosmicevan) think I'm just being cynical, then you haven't been watching the trade forums lately.
  40. MarkIntihar

    MarkIntihar Initiate (0) Mar 17, 2010 Michigan

    Great minds...
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