So when did "extras" become mandatory?!

Discussion in 'Beer Trading Talk' started by mtbdonn, Jan 2, 2013.

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  1. travMI13

    travMI13 Aspirant (213) Jan 7, 2012 Michigan
    Beer Trader

    I can't like this enough.

    You see all those posts on the trade forum including shelf whales like BCBS, KBS, and ba Naked Evil? Stuff like that commonly gets sent out as extras to good trading partners all the time. The surprise makes people happy.

    The trading community is not just an internet forum. You are supposed to treat people right and take care of the friends you make by trading. You end up with previous trade partners around the country, and you look out for each other if you are on the same page. It's fun, and it's about helping people out. In turn, someone will help you out eventually. What goes around, comes around here.

    Haven't said this yet, but I'm not commenting on the OP anymore. He had a bad experience, obviously, and I'm not trying to rag on the guy.

    This is more about the state of the community as a whole. Honestly, the general lack of understanding about the trading community and the assumption that you can just plow ahead through it and win trades has made most of this very unenjoyable. The ISO/FT board is mostly a joke, and too many people have gotten into this without doing the initial leg work. Comments like some in this thread are just more evidence of that.
    Tony412 likes this.
  2. mtbdonn

    mtbdonn Devotee (435) Dec 15, 2009 Colorado
    Beer Trader

    After my experience, I was definitely interested in the BA feedback, but I'm surprised at the degree in which "extras" are regarded, it's encompassed the entire spectrum. I absolutely believe in Advocating the extras, I enjoy giving and receiving (no comments please! :wink:), it’s truly in the spirit of BA. But I don't feel like giving the “extra” effort if I’m jerked around in a trade, call me asshole if you like.
    smutty33 and merc7186 like this.
  3. merc7186

    merc7186 Initiate (0) Dec 5, 2010 New York

    Asshole :slight_smile: (but at least an extra sending asshole, so you're my kind of asshole :slight_smile:
    mtbdonn likes this.
  4. sandiego67

    sandiego67 Initiate (0) Feb 25, 2008 California

    I just completed 3 $4$ trades with some folks in the midwest and back east. We were all just looking for local beers that aren't available in our markets. Since none of us knew each other, we set the the dollar amount of the beer at +/- $30 for the first trade. I wasn't aware of the "extra" factor but I did spend closer to $45-$50 on the beers.

    I was very happy with the beers that I received and I hope my trading partners were also.

    Would the additonal $15-$20 spent on the original trade count as an "extra"?
  5. brownswisscow

    brownswisscow Initiate (0) Feb 9, 2012 Vermont

    to me extra's define the spirit of trading.
    Sure, sometimes your box is full or you want to get something out quick and don't have extra's or it's a regular trading partner and you didn't have something new to send them.

    However, most of the time, if I don't receive an extra of some sort with a new-to-me trader, I simply won't trade with the person again. I toss in HT, HF or Lawson's bottles in as 'extras' with almost every trade and I expect something cool in return (i.e. well rated or something local+tasty).I've got to try a ton of beers and breweries I otherwise would not have this way.

    I've also dealt with some great traders that I'd happily trade with again, mule for, etc simply based on tossing in some cool extra's.

    A good starting point is just not trading with folks that seem out to 'win'.
    gpawned likes this.
  6. dvelcich

    dvelcich Initiate (0) Feb 6, 2008 Illinois

    For the record, I wasn't specifically calling you an asshole, but I still would have thrown in a couple extras unless you guys agreed to not include any. I've had trades that take months to complete. It's just part of the game.

    Did he send you extras? It sounds like you're just trying to justify not sending him anything, and you're looking for some sympathy from the community to make you feel better about it.

    I know people can be difficult, but if the trade went so bad, you should have just walked away.

    Edit: I just saw you're from the UK. That makes things even more sticky if you were trading internationally. In international trades, everything has to be discussed in minute detail given the added cost of shipping.
  7. GhettoFabulous

    GhettoFabulous Initiate (191) May 29, 2010 California

    I can’t be the only one bulking up my “Do not trade with” list with the names of people posting how wonderful it is to NOT include extras (as well as the people ‘liking’ such posts), when you know damn well there is a very high likelihood that the person on the other trade IS going to include extras. You can rationalize all you want that because they are called ‘extras’ that they are not mandatory, but if you know you are going to be receiving extras (and as others have said, 99% of the time you will) and decide not to include them in the box you send, you are willfully exploiting the generosity of others and are the exact opposite of a an advocate for anything as wonderful as beer.

    You can avoid being a jerk by simply telling the person upfront that you’d like to opt out of extras. Silence on the matter when you’re not including extras is only a few rungs down from stealing on the ladder of unscrupulous selfish behavior.

    Thank you, though, oblivious posters/likers of screwing other traders over, for self-identifying and saving us the trouble.
    johnyb, Photekut and dvelcich like this.
  8. MarkIntihar

    MarkIntihar Initiate (0) Mar 17, 2010 Michigan

  9. pschul4

    pschul4 Zealot (562) Jan 7, 2011 Illinois
    Beer Trader

    Knew what your "comment" was before I even clicked on it 3/1000000
  10. MarkIntihar

    MarkIntihar Initiate (0) Mar 17, 2010 Michigan

    I always send extras unless it's specified that we're not doing them. However, I don't really expect my trading partners to include them. Extras just give me a better idea of who I would really like to trade with again in the future.
  11. Photekut

    Photekut Initiate (0) Mar 31, 2006 Tennessee

    should i include extras if the trade sucked? it seems like they are mandatory, the other trader was butthurt i didnt.

    camp 1- extras are the spirit of ba trading that many are missing currently.

    camp 2- extras are extras and ill include them when i feel like not winning every trade you entitled asshole.

    people are including over the top camp two people on their lists. :grimacing:
    MordorMongo likes this.
  12. Levitation

    Levitation Initiate (0) Aug 7, 2009 California

    people getting non-local beer delivered right to their door have found some way to be unhappy about it.
  13. cbeer88

    cbeer88 Crusader (719) Sep 5, 2007 Massachusetts

    That's a bit different scenario. The point of extras is to surprise your target with beers they didn't ask for. When you're doing a random fixed-price box, the whole box is really the same concept as extras. You can of course go above and beyond the target figure like you did, but given that people don't usually know what locals cost in other markets, it's almost impossible to know what would be an extra and what would just be part of the agreed upon box.
  14. cavedave

    cavedave Poo-Bah (2,286) Mar 12, 2009 New York
    Beer Trader

    TLDR- Okay to be a dick and not send extras even though you get em, because they are extra. You are gonna hafta make your no trade list additions later.
  15. JohnGalt1

    JohnGalt1 Poo-Bah (4,681) Aug 10, 2005 Idaho
    Beer Trader

    The OP hit me with a very generous trade and cool extras.

    Also, the OP is shipping from Europe and his trading partners are shipping to an address in the U.S.... I would send nice extras just because my shipping costs are going to be less than half of his.

    Cheers mtbdonn... Badass trade for sure... Toby.
    mtbdonn and Envelopes like this.
  16. cavedave

    cavedave Poo-Bah (2,286) Mar 12, 2009 New York
    Beer Trader

    I know you don't trade anymore but I would bet, without even knowing you, that every box you sent when you did trade had extras.
  17. semibaked

    semibaked Zealot (566) Mar 27, 2007 Illinois

    November 4th, 2010 at 7:32 EST.
    Jnorton00 likes this.
  18. Envelopes

    Envelopes Initiate (0) Aug 26, 2012 Ohio

    Gotta agree. Donn is a great, generous guy to trade with and he's always sent me great extras (that I didn't expect). Currently loading up a massive box to send him because he's a good guy and I like giving extras. To each his own.
    mtbdonn likes this.
  19. misterid

    misterid Initiate (0) Apr 3, 2009 Wisconsin

    "extras are mandatory"?? why?

    how can one be sure that the "extras" one is receiving will be off their wants list? or something special? so we should agree to a dollar for dollar trade (approximately) and then kick in an extra, what? how much is enough? not to mention the increase in shipping.

    if this is a long-time trade partner, a friend, something like that.. sure. i will throw in a beer or two based on what i know they like/want. otherwise, no. it should not be "expected".

    i've sent extras.. not with the expectation of receiving anything in return. sometimes people reciprocate. sometimes not. and there have been a few times where guys have thrown beers in where it's obvious they are off-loading the dregs of their cellar.

    so.. no.. extras should not be "mandatory". if that's what you're after then cultivate those trading partners and you guys can jerk each other off but as far as a hard and fast rule for the community, no.
  20. oldp0rt

    oldp0rt Initiate (0) Feb 24, 2011 Quebec (Canada)

    If you can't even be bothered to look up your trading partner's profile quickly to see what they like then what's the point?

    But if you're mainly looking for a Handy partner then you might be in the wrong forums. :grinning:
    Lordkrystic likes this.
  21. jtmiller03

    jtmiller03 Initiate (0) Feb 2, 2008 Oklahoma

    For the record, the person who WINS in a trade is the person that made the other person feel like they won.
  22. BearsOnAcid

    BearsOnAcid Savant (958) Mar 17, 2009 Washington
    Beer Trader

    I dont care as long as i got the beer I asked for.
  23. Johnnyramirez

    Johnnyramirez Initiate (0) Nov 17, 2012 California

    I'm new to trading but I see 5 clear people I wouldn't want to trade with and a few others who are borderline. All that said, is it so difficult to communicate and say you won't send extras if you can't?

    Maybe I'm trading wrong, but I don't want to have a bunch of 1 and done trade partners, I would rather have 5-6 solid partners and share what I get locally with them and help them out with their wants. Granted I can't get whales on a normal basis but if I can give them locals or shelf whales, then they'll get them plus more.
    johnyb likes this.
  24. cbeer88

    cbeer88 Crusader (719) Sep 5, 2007 Massachusetts

    That's fine if you feel that way, just lay it out clearly to your partner. Fact is, like it or not, extras are customary in the trading community. Most people send them, in fact, an overwhelming majority do it. So if you know that you're probably going to get extras, but choose not to send any in return and don't say anything, how does that not make you feel bad?
    dvelcich likes this.
  25. OakedCanuck

    OakedCanuck Initiate (0) Jun 23, 2009 Washington

    Over 150 trades here. I do agree that extras are technically extra. It only becomes a DICK MOVE to not include extras if you don't let your trading partner know beforehand. To me, it comes off as kinda sleazy. It's like you are being sneaky and keeping silent just to get a couple more beers out of me without having to send any more. People who do that (and surprisingly, a few 'veteran' traders have done this to me) just go on my don't trade again list. I don't BM to complain or anything, just take a mental note. Read this: I don't put them on my don't trade list because they didn't send any extras, but because they didn't tell me they weren't going to...just puts a bad taste in my mouth.

    Also, especially take note new traders, my personal policy is this:

    If you are easy to deal with, have good communication, and I don't get the feeling you are trying to squeeze me; I will send you awesome extras. If you are difficult to deal with, nickel and dime me, and have poor communication; you will get regular extras and a ticket to the don't trade again list.
  26. abecall98

    abecall98 Devotee (448) Aug 11, 2007 California
    Beer Trader

    Way back in the day when Younger growlers were still going on, my buddy sent out a few growlers to some traders. Since he was still new to trading, his rep wasn't very large, so he sent first on two trades, sending a growler out for each one. He sent out the growler, and included extras of a couple Elders and a couple sours in each box. The other traders got his boxes, and they both only sent back the trade they agreed upon. Let's just forget about the 25$ worth of extras they each got. Assholes will anus I say. To know you got some killer extras, and then not even send back a few extras on your end, is anus behavior.

    In 50+ trades, I have received extras in all, and sent extras in all. If you don't plan on sending extras, please let the other trader know so they don't spend more time and money on trying to hook you up if you won't do the same back. Don't be a jerk.
    JulianB and OakedCanuck like this.
  27. jedwards

    jedwards Initiate (2) Feb 3, 2009 California

    Ah, trading. We had a few long discussions about this back in the old forums... I believe that people think about trading in (at least) two fundamentally different ways -- as a social act, and as an transaction. People who view trading beer as a social act understand extras implicitly (as a way of conveying social capital via a common love of beer), and trying to translate that implicit justification into language that a transactional trader will understand is a flawed exercise -- they're working from within different frameworks. Analogizing it to tipping is legitimate but typically just results in people arguing about tipping.

    Send extras if you want to. Don't if you don't. Be clear, in your profile and in your communication, about which you're going to do, if you don't want people to get upset with you due to mismatch of assumptions.
    gpawned, claaark13, libbey and 12 others like this.
  28. misterid

    misterid Initiate (0) Apr 3, 2009 Wisconsin

    customary is different than mandatory.

    i lay out clearly "i am sending X and nothing else. all i want in return is Y."

    i don't feel bad if some guy knows that and then sends me a 9 month old pale ale. and i certainly don't want to be "forced" to send extras because of the views of BA's.

    the only beers i'll trade for are those i will never be able to get my hands on. don't have to be uber-limited releases, or "whales". it can be off-the-shelf beers in North Carolina or Oregon. i'm not expecting the guy to kick in anything else because he's already doing me enough of a favor sending me the beers i have requested.

    it's the "mandatory" entitlement that bothers me. why does anyone deserve extra? if you want extra, then ask for it.

    i've heard/read plenty of stories/posts about people being pissed off that the extras they sent were superior to the extras they received. so, where's the line? what are we supposed to send as extras? only our finest, most expensive, barrel aged wonders? is it local only options? only barleywines?
  29. misterid

    misterid Initiate (0) Apr 3, 2009 Wisconsin

    link to the right forums?
    oldp0rt likes this.
  30. JCDenver

    JCDenver Initiate (142) Feb 8, 2010 Texas
    Beer Trader

    I send extras unless we mutually agree to not send them. It does not bother me in the slightest if I do not receive any in return.
    YaKnowBrady likes this.
  31. misterid

    misterid Initiate (0) Apr 3, 2009 Wisconsin

    i'm solid. just expressing an opinion to counter the ridiculous notion that something like extras should be mandatory.

  32. stxSS07

    stxSS07 Initiate (0) Nov 23, 2010 Illinois

    All of you Advocating extras are Entitled and Gouging the community.


    (I even capitalized 'em for the soul-less)
  33. mtbdonn

    mtbdonn Devotee (435) Dec 15, 2009 Colorado
    Beer Trader

    I'm not trying to poke this dead horse, but I am now lost in this thread. If you discuss and coordinate bottles, I don't consider that an extra, that is now part of a bigger trade. It may have went from 2 to 6, whatever, but if coordinated and discussed that becomes part of the trade. I personally feel if extras are discussed, how is it still extra? You're right, extras are supposed to be thoughtful, but where is the thought discussing extras. You're trading more of yours for more of theirs? The thought comes from looking at their wants or in my case, I may not have their wants being overseas, but I put some thought into what they might like, something unique and hard to get.
    And honestly, I have more trades then on my profile over the past few years and I've never encountered a trade where we discussed where we would or wouldn't send extras. I have guys tell me they have more items to possibly increase the trade, but never thought of that as an extra. The SHARING is surprising someone! IMO.
    MarkIntihar likes this.
  34. TheBronze

    TheBronze Disciple (389) Apr 16, 2009 Washington
    Beer Trader

    I just recently shipped out my first trade. I was going to include a couple nice misc. locals as extras, and then I thought back to a comment my trading partner made that most of his cellar was sours. I knew a small local brewery had a limited release sour out now so I made some calls, drove to a store and bought the bomber and that was the extra I shipped. It made me feel great to share something he would never get unless he trades for it. When I receive my shipment shortly I only hope it includes what we agreed upon. That is all I'll need to be a happy camper. Anything in addition to that would be, well "extra."
    laymansbeerfan, johnyb and Photekut like this.
  35. Archemedies

    Archemedies Initiate (0) Dec 8, 2011 Massachusetts

    If you don't plan on sending extras let the other person know before they ship. Simple as that.
    Lordkrystic, dvelcich and cavedave like this.
  36. vurt

    vurt Crusader (753) Apr 11, 2004 Oregon

    THIS, exactly.
  37. cbeer88

    cbeer88 Crusader (719) Sep 5, 2007 Massachusetts

    Your (justified) confusion stems from the word 'extras' not really being the perfectly fitting word for the act. Really, 'extras' is just a short placeholder for "random beer I want to give you that I think you'll like beyond what we specifically agreed to trade for". Thus when two parties agree upon 'extras' in advance, they are both just making it clear that they would each enjoy some "random beer that the other thinks I will like".

    I think you are also in a bit different boat than most. International trading is very expensive and very capacity/weight limited. Thus it makes sense to me that people would try to maximize the specific bottles of the trade and then only worry about extras if there is any room leftover.
    dvelcich likes this.
  38. kscaldef

    kscaldef Initiate (0) Jun 11, 2010 Oregon
    Beer Trader

    There's a fuzzy line. Generally I have no idea what extras might show up in a box, and generally I don't give people any indication what extras I might be sending them. Sometimes there might be a mention of using a 6 or 12 bottle shipper and filling up the remaining space. Sometimes someone might ask me if I've had anything from a particular brewery, or about what breweries from their home state get distributed to Oregon. Rarely, someone tells me they're going to include something specific, which always feels a little odd, but I'm not going to lose sleep over it.
  39. Compton25

    Compton25 Aspirant (279) Jan 25, 2011 Texas
    Beer Trader

    I don't expect extras, but I am always grateful for them. Extras my trading partners have sent have opened my eyes to many breweries and many styles I would not have had the chance to try. The Bruery, Highland Brewing, Duck-Rabbit, just to name a few.. I would have missed out on many great beers if it was not for the generosity of other traders and their extras. I try my best to return the favor.
  40. DanzBorin

    DanzBorin Initiate (0) Apr 11, 2012 Texas

    I send extras and expect none in return.

    The extras make me feel good. Sometimes its a few 12oz bottles/cans I think they will appreciate. Sometimes its a couple of bombers worth almost as much as the agreed trade. It all boils down to my gut feeling an how pleasant the trade negotiations have gone. If it's a normal partner, it's going to be a lot of extras. They know you once you've made a few trades and understand the level at which you extra.

    I try to stick close to $4$ when negotiating, but it's not to win, it's a guideline, especially for new trading partners. I enjoy when I send a beer and someone messages back saying how awesome and extra is. That's what makes trading fun. :slight_smile:

    If I get something back, I'm grateful, if not, no big deal.
    suspect likes this.
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