Spare Ingredients - help us build a beer!

Discussion in 'Homebrewing' started by Hop-Droppen-Roll, Apr 27, 2017.

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  1. Hop-Droppen-Roll

    Hop-Droppen-Roll Initiate (0) Nov 5, 2013 Minnesota

    My dad and I are kit brewers, and somehow we found ourselves with the following spare ingredients between the two of us (I think we had a SMaSH kit and just lost the box, and 1oz of hops apparently):

    • Lallemand (Danstar?) BRY-97 dry yeast
    • 6lb Pilsen LME
    • 3oz Simcoe

    The kit I believe we had brews a session pale ale, but we are more interested in something a little bigger and badder. I'd love to brew an ESB, we always love IPAs, but of course we'd be interested to try almost anything. So I'm basically asking for recommendations for additional ingredients for whatever recipe you can come up with using these ingredients. Scoring is based on originality, plating, and flavor. Don't get chopped.

    We don't know about the characteristics of the yeast (we always just use what's in the kit). I get nervous because I know some are more aggressive than others, and some strains should be avoided for certain styles...

    I look forward to seeing what you all come up with, and hopefully this is a good learning opportunity for me.
     
  2. scottakelly

    scottakelly Zealot (525) May 9, 2007 Ohio

    Creativity isn't necessarily my strong suit. I usually prefer to not fight my ingredients, and yours are screaming a nice straight forward American Pale Ale to me.

    I really don't see how to make an ESB out of this. None of the base ingredients are typical.

    Personally, looking at your ingredients, and if didn't want a Simcoe pale ale, I would scrap the yeast, buy WY2575 and an ounce of a noble hop, and combine that with the Simcoe to make a SN Kolsch clone. I miss that beer.
     
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  3. Hop-Droppen-Roll

    Hop-Droppen-Roll Initiate (0) Nov 5, 2013 Minnesota

    Good insight, thanks! I always thought ESB would be constructed similarly to a Pale Ale so I thought I'd mention it.

    Do you think with the addition of a good steeping grain and maybe some centennial, we'd be on the right track to a good IPA?

    BTW the Kolsh sounds good. I think we'd be willing to try it but we both lean heavily toward heavier gravity brews. The booziness hides our noobery. :stuck_out_tongue:

    I was reading a little earlier in your thread about S-04 and I had to wonder if our frequent use of it (it's what comes in the kits!) is what is giving our beers that 'amateur homebrewer' flavor that I don't care for. But like I mentioned - I don't know the ins and outs of yeast, but I do know it's possible to choose wrong yeasts, so I've never experimented with it, and I wouldn't know where to start.
     
  4. machalel

    machalel Initiate (0) Jan 19, 2012 Australia

    If you're not against going out and getting a bit more supplies, then how about*:

    6lbs Pilsen LME
    3lbs Wheat DME
    5oz Amber Candy Syrup (can just make your own)

    1.0oz Simcoe @ 60 min
    1.0oz Simcoe @ 10 min
    0.5oz Orange Peel @ 5 min
    0.1oz Ground Coriander Seed, 5 min
    0.5oz Simcoe @ flameout
    0.5oz Simcoe @ Dryhop

    That will get you 5.5Gal of ~6% ~50IBU "not really but kinda" White IPA
    :stuck_out_tongue:






    * Just threw it together, so feel free to modify / fiddle.
     
  5. scottakelly

    scottakelly Zealot (525) May 9, 2007 Ohio

    Lots of homebrewers like S-04, so I don't want to be a buzzkill to someone who likes it. But it's not for me. If I'm using it I want an English yeast character and I just don't get it from S-04.

    I do think that most of the "Homebrew" character new brewers pick up on is usually due to the yeast, however. Either wrong yeast selection or bad fermentation practices.

    If you go with the pale ale or IPA route, the ingredients you have will work fine. The difference to me is the gravity and IBUs. More and you have an IPA and less a Pale Ale. I wouldn't worry about adding Centennial. I like Centennial but Simcoe alone will make a nice beer and give you a feel for that hop profile.

    Don't fear the low gravity styles like Kolsch. There is a lot of flavor, and nuance, to pick up from those styles. Sometimes the project calls for the claw hammer, and not the sledge, imo.
     
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  6. Hop-Droppen-Roll

    Hop-Droppen-Roll Initiate (0) Nov 5, 2013 Minnesota

    No Buzzkill happening. I don't 'like' it, I just don't know what the alternatives are, or how they differ in their own particular ways.

    Good point about maybe sticking with Simcoe, would be good to get a feel for that particular strain.

    Believe me, I love a good kolsch, gose, etcetera - but this is for both my dad and I, and we tend to have a preference for heavier beers. This beer is 3rd in line and we don't get to brew often, however, so we have some time to think about it. Maybe it would be worth tossing this yeast and giving your recommendation a try. I would need more details though (brewing timeline, etc.).

    As it stands, maybe we'll just try to get our hands on another 1 or 2 ounces of Simcoe and do the Pale Ale. But - Might it be worth picking up some steeping grains? I guess this is what I was getting at. We are not as big on APAs, we love IPAs. How would you recommend achieving a solid IPA recipe based on what we already have? (That's probably a better way of asking the question I meant to ask in the OP).
     
  7. scottakelly

    scottakelly Zealot (525) May 9, 2007 Ohio

    Personally, I don't see a difference necessarily between an IPA grain bill and Pale Ale. It's just the gravity. You can make a great IPA with only Pilsner malt. You can make a great IPA with other malts, it just depends on what you want. Myself, I like my IPAs dry and hop forward, so I would be comfortable with no additional steeping grains.
     
  8. GormBrewhouse

    GormBrewhouse Zealot (541) Jun 24, 2015 Vermont

    Toss the Bry 97 yeast in the trash. Personally the worst yeast I ever used.

    Replace with Nottingham or s 05.
    Steep .5 lb of L10
    1lb cane sugar in the boil.
    1 oz cascade 60
    1 oz chinook 15
    1 oz simco 5
    2 oz simco DH 3-5 days

    Yahoo
     
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  9. Hop-Droppen-Roll

    Hop-Droppen-Roll Initiate (0) Nov 5, 2013 Minnesota

    Good call... how would you recommend upping the gravity a bit? (Yes I am one of those guys :grinning:)


    How would you recommend upping the gravity a bit? Just a bit more of the Pils malt?
    I'm intrigued by your specificity, can you tell me a bit more about this brew? What is it you like about the yeasts you mentioned?
     
  10. Hop-Droppen-Roll

    Hop-Droppen-Roll Initiate (0) Nov 5, 2013 Minnesota

    Sorry for the double quote @scottakelly, one of them doesn't show up when I try to edit.
     
  11. scottakelly

    scottakelly Zealot (525) May 9, 2007 Ohio

    No problem.

    You could up the gravity in several ways. Steep a crystal malt as @GormBrewhouse mentions. You could buy more pilsner malt extract. If you want some more malt character but want to keep it dry my preference would be to buy some Munich malt extract to get me to the gravity I want. I just ran a quick calculation and 4 pounds of liquid Munich malt extract should get you to an OG around 1.070, assuming a 5 gallon batch.
     
  12. Hop-Droppen-Roll

    Hop-Droppen-Roll Initiate (0) Nov 5, 2013 Minnesota

    This is where my inexperience is a headache. I want to experiment with options so I can learn - so I'm intrigued by the crystal malt which I've never used, but maybe for research purposes I'm best off keeping it a SMaSH... You think 4 more pounds of Pils, a couple more ounces of Simcoe, and maybe trying one of the yeasts recommended by @GormBrewhouse would do me well?
     
  13. scottakelly

    scottakelly Zealot (525) May 9, 2007 Ohio

    What is the alpha acid % of the Simcoe? I can work up a hop schedule for you.
     
  14. crcostel

    crcostel Initiate (0) Feb 26, 2006 Illinois

    Steeping a crystal in an extract brew is as easy as making a long cup of tea with a bag.
     
  15. Hop-Droppen-Roll

    Hop-Droppen-Roll Initiate (0) Nov 5, 2013 Minnesota

    looks like 12-14 per this source: http://www.hopslist.com/hops/dual-purpose-hops/simcoe/

    That's about what I imagined. What sort of characteristics can I expect it to bring to the beer? Sounds more convenient than adding more LME, which is a bit of a pain. At the same time though, a straight pils bill would teach me a bit about pils malt.
     
  16. GormBrewhouse

    GormBrewhouse Zealot (541) Jun 24, 2015 Vermont

    S 04 and Nottingham are my preferred yeast strains for a pale or IPA because they work quickly and reach the FG I am looking for routinely. I also like what taste they impart to the brew. In my experience it is close to neutral. I want to taste the hops and malts. Not other yeast esters and other items.

    Remember it's all personal preference. I use dry yeast ,others swear by liquid, both make great beers.

    Steeping grains is not a pain and can add different characteristics to your beer. Extract is quicker but it lessens your options. I want all the options possible.
     
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  17. scottakelly

    scottakelly Zealot (525) May 9, 2007 Ohio

    It's hard to bump the gravity up without adding some more LME. It would take a lot of crystal malt to get you there.

    Here's what I worked up...
    9lb Pilsner LME
    1lb Crystal 10L (steeped prior to boil at 155 degrees)
    .5 oz Simcoe at 60 minutes
    .5 oz Simcoe at 20 minutes
    1 oz Simcoe at 10 minutes
    1 oz Simcoe at flameout
    .5 oz Simcoe dry hop

    This should end up giving you an ABV somewhere around 6.8%

    Try the Nottingham yeast. It's great for IPAs. Just keep it cool, between 60 and 65.
     
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  18. GormBrewhouse

    GormBrewhouse Zealot (541) Jun 24, 2015 Vermont

    O yeah I forgot to use your extract in my recipe My bad!
     
  19. Hop-Droppen-Roll

    Hop-Droppen-Roll Initiate (0) Nov 5, 2013 Minnesota

    This looks good.

    Couple Questions. Why add the crystal now that we've got 9lb lme? Also, how long does it steep, 30min?

    Couple Notes. I see your recipe here has 2.5oz simcoe. This leaves me with an extra .5oz, which I imagine I would add to the dry hop. Only .5oz at 60 isn't much for an IPA in my very limited experience, but I think this would be an interesting beer with a nose full of hops and a nice toasty flavor on the palate.

    I want to take your recommendation on the yeast, but I don't know if we can swing that 60-65 degree ferment. We've been fermenting in my dad's basement so I'll have to check with him and see what he thinks. If that's not doable maybe we go with S-04.
     
  20. scottakelly

    scottakelly Zealot (525) May 9, 2007 Ohio

    If you use the crystal you will get a little extra body, color, and a slight taste difference. You could also skip it and go with 10 lbs Pilsner LME instead.

    I forget how long to steep crystal malts, lol. It's been way too long since I've done an extract brew. It's not long, they don't need to be converted. Someone else can chime in or consult howtobrew.com.

    If you have the extra .5 oz of Simcoe just throw it into the dry hop. This recipe should give you a good feel for the flavor and aroma of Simcoe. I think the bitterness level is spot on for an IPA, imo.

    if you have to ferment warmer, I would go with US-05 over S-04. See my recent thread, lol.
     
  21. donspublic

    donspublic Poo-Bah (2,225) Aug 4, 2014 Texas
    Society Trader

  22. Hop-Droppen-Roll

    Hop-Droppen-Roll Initiate (0) Nov 5, 2013 Minnesota

    I tend to prefer a little body and color. This is looking good.
     
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  23. crcostel

    crcostel Initiate (0) Feb 26, 2006 Illinois

    Just doing Pilsen DME is a little bland - think playing a note vs. a chord. Crystal gives it color, body and residual sweetness/flavor (dependent on the variety).
     
  24. Hop-Droppen-Roll

    Hop-Droppen-Roll Initiate (0) Nov 5, 2013 Minnesota

    Definitely interested.
     
  25. Ten_SeventySix_Brewhouse

    Ten_SeventySix_Brewhouse Initiate (153) Jul 20, 2016 Indiana

    I agree with the concept of adding complexity, but I don't think crystal malts have a place in an IPA. I also prefer my pale ales without any crystal, but I think you have a little more leeway there, since pales should be "balanced," whereas IPAs really shouldn't be. I second @scottakelly on the Munich suggestion. It will get you color and flavor without too much sweetness.

    Of course, some people like IPAs with lots of crystal. Different strokes...
     
  26. Hop-Droppen-Roll

    Hop-Droppen-Roll Initiate (0) Nov 5, 2013 Minnesota

    Why not?

    Keep in mind my noobery - I don't know the characteristic differences between crystal, munich, pils, etc...

    munich might be the way to go.

    I would personally like to maintain some dryness.
     
  27. Ten_SeventySix_Brewhouse

    Ten_SeventySix_Brewhouse Initiate (153) Jul 20, 2016 Indiana

    Crystal malts are kilned to a point that they contain very little in terms of fermentables. That means they don't get eaten by the yeast, leaving you with a sweeter, fuller-bodied beer. That means a higher FG. Of course, that's in addition to whatever flavors and colors they contribute.

    Munich, on the other hand, is a base malt, so it ferments out, for the most part. That leaves you with a dryer beer than you would have had, had you used crystal. It's kilned darker than pilsner, so has a more "malty" taste and imparts a darker color. It will leave you with about the same FG you would have had had you used an equal amount of pilsner malt in its place.
     
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  28. Hop-Droppen-Roll

    Hop-Droppen-Roll Initiate (0) Nov 5, 2013 Minnesota

    Thanks!
     
  29. crcostel

    crcostel Initiate (0) Feb 26, 2006 Illinois

    Personally a bit of c60 is fine in an ipa.
    Just remember any significant bit of Munich (the grain) should be mashed instead of steeped. Crystal can be steeped because it has few fermentation. Since you've been doing extracts, you might want to start with steeping. They are very similar but mashing is more precise in technique.

    Dryness is greatly affected by yeast selection. US-05 can be a monster
     
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  30. Hop-Droppen-Roll

    Hop-Droppen-Roll Initiate (0) Nov 5, 2013 Minnesota

    I was going to add munich LME.
     
  31. Ten_SeventySix_Brewhouse

    Ten_SeventySix_Brewhouse Initiate (153) Jul 20, 2016 Indiana

    I won't lie, here. I'm pretty uneducated on extracts. I had assumed OP would be able to buy a Munich extract syrup. If that's not the case, and he would have to use actual grains, maybe doing a mini-mash would be a good intro to all-grain, if he ever wishes to go that direction.

    Also, as I've said in other threads, I'm not a big fan of US-05 if I'm bottle conditioning because of the poor flocculation and compaction. I've never used BRY-97, but have heard bad things. I had a really good experience with Mangrove Jack m44. Of course, I'm in the minority here, as most people seem to love 05. My 2¢.
     
    #31 Ten_SeventySix_Brewhouse, Apr 28, 2017
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2017
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  32. Hop-Droppen-Roll

    Hop-Droppen-Roll Initiate (0) Nov 5, 2013 Minnesota

    Yeah, to be honest I was completely confused by your remarks, @crcostel, sorry man. I didn't know that 'mini-mash' was a thing... I thought anything beyond extract/BIAB would require a full all-grain setup.
     
  33. Ten_SeventySix_Brewhouse

    Ten_SeventySix_Brewhouse Initiate (153) Jul 20, 2016 Indiana

    Read this: http://byo.com/hops/item/1414-steeping-vs-partial-mashing

    I assume you've steeped grains before. This time, just do the "partial mash," then add your extract, and proceed as usual. This link details it in a pretty foolproof way: http://www.northernbrewer.com/learn/partial-mash-walkthrough/
     
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  34. Hop-Droppen-Roll

    Hop-Droppen-Roll Initiate (0) Nov 5, 2013 Minnesota

  35. crcostel

    crcostel Initiate (0) Feb 26, 2006 Illinois

    The BYO is a good overview of steeping vs mashing. Of course if OP just buys LME it doesn't matter.

    OP - if you never have steeped before, now is a good time to start. Little effort, no risk, good reward.
     
  36. Hop-Droppen-Roll

    Hop-Droppen-Roll Initiate (0) Nov 5, 2013 Minnesota

    which is what exactly?
     
  37. crcostel

    crcostel Initiate (0) Feb 26, 2006 Illinois

    Color, flavor, body
     
  38. Hop-Droppen-Roll

    Hop-Droppen-Roll Initiate (0) Nov 5, 2013 Minnesota

    Are you referring to steeping crystal malts? or partial mash? I've always steeped whatever 'specialty grains' come in my kit... I was assuming, based on context of earlier remarks, that most steeping grains only add color and body and aroma, while crystal malts are something different, and steeping them will actually introduce additional fermentable sugars into the wort.
     
  39. crcostel

    crcostel Initiate (0) Feb 26, 2006 Illinois

    No, crystal malts would be a steeping grain. Steeping grains do bring a small amount of fermentables to the wort. Mashing would bring a bit more sugar out of steeping grains, but generally there isn't much to be had. The advantage of Mashing/Mini-Mashing/BIAB etc is that you can mash any grain. Only certain ones can be steeped.

    If you want Munich you'll have to mash or use extract. I don't like LME because it burns and it can go bad in storage.

    As to why extract plus grain is better than just extract, I'll quote Palmer

    "Just about every beer style may be made by using Pale malt extract and steeping the specialty grains listed below. Brown Ales, Bitters, India Pale Ales, Stouts, Bocks, Oktoberfests; all can be made using this method. And the resulting beer flavor will be superior than what can be made using extracts alone. Award winning beers can be made solely from extract, but freshness of the extract is often an issue and using grain can make up the difference between a good beer and an outstanding one."
     
  40. pweis909

    pweis909 Poo-Bah (1,965) Aug 13, 2005 Wisconsin
    Society

    I wanted to like, but alas, it threw diacetyl at me. I had to use US-05 to clean it up. I'm pretty sure this and Mangrove Jack Liberty Bell are derived from the same strain. Recently had a similar experience with MJLB, although it did clean itself up after an extended time. I have not had this experience with the purported liquid versions.

    Therefore, @Hop-Droppen-Roll , I would consider US-05. Simcoe wants to be a pale ale/ipa. I might steep a small amount of a light colored crystal malt, like 4-8 oz of caravienne, for a little touch of sweetness. Maybe you could talk me in to 12 oz, but higher would be criminal (I'd be forced to make a citizen's arrest, confiscate your gear, and turn you over to the Crystal Police). Add some other hop later. Mosaic, citra, or centennial (depending on new school vs old school). And maybe some table sugar if you want it higher gravity.
     
    #40 pweis909, Apr 28, 2017
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2017
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