Style-defining beers?

Discussion in 'Beer Talk' started by coocookuhchoo, Oct 6, 2012.

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  1. Fenris244

    Fenris244 Initiate (0) Aug 24, 2010 Texas

    Saison: Saison DuPont
    Hefe: Live Oak Hefe
    Wit: Allagash White or (512) wit
    Oktoberfest: Ayinger
    Doppelbock: Celebrator

    others will take too long so its staying at this length for now
  2. ncaudle

    ncaudle Defender (602) May 28, 2010 Virginia
    Beer Trader

    yet the 15th anniversary is still the best of that style...
    Wookey Jack is close but not roasty enough (for me)
  3. WhatANicePub

    WhatANicePub Initiate (183) Jul 1, 2009 United Kingdom (Scotland)

    Experience drinking beer.
    herrburgess likes this.
  4. AJacob81

    AJacob81 Initiate (0) Mar 15, 2010 Illinois

    I only list those that I like best:

    Celebrator - Doppelbock
    La Fin du Monde - Tripel
    Goose Island Nut Brown - Brown Ale
    FFF Behemoth - Barley Wine
    Haymarket Matthias - IIPA
    F-W Union Jack - IPA
    GL Edmund Fitzgerald - Porter
    Revolution Workingman's Mild - Mild
    FBS - Oatmeal/Coffee Stout
    moju likes this.
  5. NoLeafClover44

    NoLeafClover44 Crusader (701) Feb 24, 2011 Delaware
    Beer Trader

    I love that stuff. Wookey just barely beats out SSR for top ABA according to my reviews. Sublimely Self Righteous is still the first beer that comes to mind for the style IMO. Clown Shoes Hoppy Feet 1.5, Ithaca Fourteen, and Victory Yakima Glory rank right up there as well.
  6. jmw

    jmw Initiate (0) Feb 4, 2009 North Carolina

    1000X 'like'
  7. jmw

    jmw Initiate (0) Feb 4, 2009 North Carolina

    Blue Mountain Full Nelson (APA)
  8. barleywinefiend

    barleywinefiend Initiate (0) Nov 22, 2007 Washington

    Anyone can drink beer and have an opinion. Drinking enough beer gives you an idea, it does not qualify you to say "I drink lots of beer so this is what a Pils should taste like. I have 2700+ reviews and still refer to BJCP for guidelines on style. BJCP provides a general basis and guidelines for styles, it may not be the law of the land but no one has yet been able to cite something remotely adequate as to style accuracy. Can you provide something else with a bit more substance..other than "drink beer"?
  9. jzeilinger

    jzeilinger Poo-Bah (5,070) Dec 4, 2004 Pennsylvania
    Supporter Beer Trader

    Another vote for Saison Dupont.
    JoEBoBpr likes this.
  10. scud

    scud Aspirant (200) Sep 22, 2010 Indiana
    Beer Trader

    Non-barrelRIS- Founders Imperial stout or CCB Marshal zhukov
  11. herrburgess

    herrburgess Meyvn (1,035) Nov 4, 2009 South Carolina
    Industry Beer Trader

    Don't presume to speak for the man, but FYI here is patto1ro's Web site, where you can get a sense of the type of education I suspect he's referring to: Loads of researching, analyzing, and discussing primary sources on brewing; extensive beer travel; writing and publishing beer and pub guides; and, yes, a good deal of drinking. :wink:
    barleywinefiend and jmw like this.
  12. Blanco

    Blanco Devotee (458) Oct 11, 2008 Pennsylvania
    Beer Trader

    Allagash White defines the witbier style for me. Such a perfect, I rarely drink any other witbiers.
  13. barleywinefiend

    barleywinefiend Initiate (0) Nov 22, 2007 Washington

    :slight_smile: I have reviewed this a few times and I eat slices of humble pie.
  14. clarkley

    clarkley Aspirant (273) Oct 23, 2009 Pennsylvania

    Here Here to the sunken freighter...EF Porter is a game changer!
  15. darknova306

    darknova306 Initiate (0) Jan 13, 2005 New York

    Belgian Dubbel: Westmalle
    American IPA: Ithaca Flower Power (local bias, no apologies)
    Belgian Tripel: Chimay White
    Helles: Augustiner
    Doppelbock: Andechs
    Barleywine: Thomas Hardy

    Those are the ones that come to mind right now.
  16. mintjellie

    mintjellie Defender (630) Oct 2, 2005 Ontario (Canada)

    I already agreed that not all top fermented beers are ales. Kolsch is most certainly a lager. I'm not sure what I'm missing that would get me all the way there.
  17. mintjellie

    mintjellie Defender (630) Oct 2, 2005 Ontario (Canada)

    When is a beer that has been lagered not a lager? When it's kolsch.

    When is a beer that hasn't been lagered a lager? When it's california common.

    Doesn't make a whole lot of sense. :wink:

    Truthfully, each way of looking at it really is equally true and valid.
  18. patto1ro

    patto1ro Defender (627) Apr 26, 2004 Netherlands

    The BJCP guidelines do not provide references from primary source material for any of the claims in their guidleines. Therefore, from an academic point of view, they're no better than gossip.

    Privately, there are people within the BJCP who admit that some of the guidelines are wrong, but inertia within the organisation has prevented them being changed.

    Another source? Martyn Cornell for British styles. Or me. For German styles Hollhüber and Kaul. For Czech styles Evan Rail (he's doing some great work on the history of Pilsner Urquell). Tim Webb or Derek Walsh for Benelux styles.
  19. bstyle

    bstyle Devotee (432) Apr 27, 2006 Indiana
    Beer Trader

  20. marquis

    marquis Crusader (744) Nov 20, 2005 United Kingdom (England)

    I wouldn't like to rely on a road map produced by the BJCP. I would be looking for roads that aren't there and many that are there would be doing in the wrong direction.
  21. Stankonia

    Stankonia Initiate (0) Dec 17, 2010 Idaho

    Same thing as Dales Pale Ale, which is really an IPA, at least going by total IBUs and gravity.

    Style-defining does not = best. Zombie Dust may be amazing, but it's not fair, or accurate to compare it to true-to-style pale ales
  22. drtth

    drtth Poo-Bah (3,245) Nov 25, 2007 Pennsylvania

    Yeah, the basic problem is we often want there to be a univariate solution (usually based on our own pet variable of choice).
  23. Hoppsbabo

    Hoppsbabo Champion (811) Jan 29, 2012 United Kingdom (England)

    Yeah, I think it's awful stuff. Especially from the can.
  24. Dennoman

    Dennoman Initiate (0) Aug 20, 2011 Belgium

    Avec les Bon Voeux - saison
  25. rlcoffey

    rlcoffey Initiate (0) Apr 20, 2004 Kentucky

    I dont think BJCP has any pretense of being "academic". That is a very silly standard to hold them to.
  26. rlcoffey

    rlcoffey Initiate (0) Apr 20, 2004 Kentucky

    I agree. My biggest disagreement is with the Brits who refuse to acknowledge this. While, of course, accepting the 16th century definition change of "ale".

    I personally think dividing by genetics is more useful than dividing by process, because process has degrees. How long is it lagered, at what temperature? For how long and for how low before the beer becomes a lager? On the other hand, a clade is a clade is a clade.

    And when someone makes a beer from Saccharomyces eubayanus, we are gonna need another name, regardless of process.
  27. MaxSpang

    MaxSpang Initiate (0) Jan 28, 2011 Ohio
    Beer Trader

    I think people are confusing "style-defining" with "favorite". Hate to say it, but I don't think Three Floyds makes anything to style. They do make delicious beer, though.
    TongoRad and patto1ro like this.
  28. marquis

    marquis Crusader (744) Nov 20, 2005 United Kingdom (England)

    But the yeast strain is the result of conditioning.Generations of low temperature fermentation favoured the selection of so-called bottom fermenting yeasts whereas warmer conditions suited so called top fermenters. (I say so-called as of course both actually ferment throughout the wort ) The clade isn't the determinator of the beer ,it's the result, what really matter are the fermentation and maturing temperatures.Your argument is back to front.It's like classifying artefacts on the basis of whether they are nailed together or screwed together.
    Whilst we can live here with loosely accepting porter into the ale family-at least they have much in common-to include beers which have very little in common except where the yeast settles into the same family is a different matter. Ale is not simply a catch-all name to describe a top fermented brew, it's much more than that.
    Martyn Cornell puts it rather better than I can hope to;
  29. rlcoffey

    rlcoffey Initiate (0) Apr 20, 2004 Kentucky

    First, I like your parenthetical. This, BTW, is why I dont like that classification, as it spreads a myth. So, while I understand why some prefer the terms "top-fermenting" and "bottom-fermenting" yeasts, I dont like them because its a lie. Calling them "ale" and "lager" yeast is more accurate, even if not entirely so. And it becomes completely accurate under the categorization I prefer. :wink:

    Both agree and disagree. Its true that the clade is the result in the same sense that species are the result of evolution. Which is the analogy Im making so I agree, but we classify by the result, not the process.

    And this is where you refuse to acknowledge change. Ale is a catch all name, deal with it.

    He provides my answer to him in his 2nd paragraph:

    Now, I know that “ale” has already changed its meaning over the centuries.

    Yep, and now its done it again. You and he should suck it up and deal.

    And later he writes:

    But my big objection is that I don’t want, every time I write something about, say, how the London porter brewers in the 1830s began brewing ale, to have to explain to my readers what ale meant at the time, and how porter wasn’t an ale.

    To which my response is: too fucking bad. Suck it up and deal.
  30. rlcoffey

    rlcoffey Initiate (0) Apr 20, 2004 Kentucky

    Martyn actually has a response in the comments that I 100% agree with:

    This post was written mostly tongue-in-cheek, since I’m very aware that meanings change, and it was really meant to underline that readers of this blog have to understand that fact too, and recognise that “ale” today does not have the meaning that “ale” had in the 18th century, and when I write about “ale” I often mean the 18th century meaning, not the 21st century one. I’m perfectly happy, in fact, about the change in meaning: what pisses me off is people who insist that the modern meaning trumps the older one.
  31. patto1ro

    patto1ro Defender (627) Apr 26, 2004 Netherlands

    It seems fair enough when the word "education" is being thrown around in connection with the BJCP.
  32. patto1ro

    patto1ro Defender (627) Apr 26, 2004 Netherlands

    I forgot this obvious one:

    Bass No. 1 - Barley Wine.
  33. marquis

    marquis Crusader (744) Nov 20, 2005 United Kingdom (England)

    "Well, apart from “top-fermenting yeast” being an inaccurate description anyway (“warm-fermenting yeast” is a much better label), there’s also the arrogance of slapping a name, “ale”, on the products of brewers from Cologne, Dusseldorf, Belgium, Picardy and elsewhere that those brewers wouldn’t use themselves."
    "That theory only works in English. No realigning of the English word “ale” will turn Kölsch into one."
  34. rlcoffey

    rlcoffey Initiate (0) Apr 20, 2004 Kentucky

    Only if you think education only comes from the academy. I spent enough years in grad school to know better than that. :slight_smile:
  35. rlcoffey

    rlcoffey Initiate (0) Apr 20, 2004 Kentucky

    I dont know why germans would care what we call it in english.

    If we have redefined ale to mean "malt beverage made with S cerevisiae" (and we have) then a Kolsch absolutely is one.
  36. StubFaceJoe

    StubFaceJoe Initiate (0) Nov 24, 2011 Colorado

    Well, make sure you don't call it anything else in Texas.
  37. DogfishJoe

    DogfishJoe Initiate (189) Feb 14, 2010 Ohio
    Beer Trader

    great lakes edmund Fitzgerald for porter.
    Fatheads head hunter for ipa.
  38. raynmoon

    raynmoon Crusader (728) Aug 13, 2011 Colorado
    Beer Trader

    Aprihop, for all the many Apricot infused IPAs...
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