The How My Averagely Perfect NorthEast IPA Turned Out Thread

Discussion in 'Homebrewing' started by pweis909, Jul 30, 2016.

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  1. pweis909

    pweis909 Poo-Bah (1,907) Aug 13, 2005 Wisconsin
    Society

    I think chloride:sulfate could play a factor. I also think that calculated IBUs from whirlpool could over-predict perceived bitterness. I won't pretend to know the chemistry behind that, but I feel like other beers I have brewed support the observation.
     
  2. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Poo-Bah (4,942) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society

    Peter, that is a reasonable assertion. Unless you are aware of scientific studies that I am not aware of the estimations of IBUs from a hopstand/whirlpool is a guess.

    Cheers!
     
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  3. kcq101

    kcq101 Initiate (0) Nov 10, 2007 Pennsylvania

    So here's another pic from this weekend in better lighting - 14 days from brew day.

    Appearance - An appreciable haze. Certainly not turbid or murky IMO. I think it's right where I'd hoped it would be. The color is an appealing orange-ish gold. Though the acutal color is a little more muted and not quite as rich as this picture would suggest. The head was thick and pillowy at first. But the retention and lacing wasn't quite there on this pour.

    Aroma - Amazing. Grapefruit, mango, berry, pineapple... complimented in the background with some dank earthiness to which I attribute to Galaxy. It's certainly vibrant and fruity.

    Mouthfeel - Soft and creamy, with a good prickly carbonation finish. Maybe not as full as I was hoping for having adjusted my water for the first time. But very pleasant nonetheless.

    Taste - Describing taste is not my forte, but here we go... The bitterness is exactly where I want it to be - moderate but not muted - lingering to the end. The flavor is certainly tropical and fruity - bright and citrus-forward with a little bit of pineyness. The malt hides far in the background, providing a hint of sweetness in the middle-to-end.

    Overall - I really, really like this beer. One of the better hoppy beers I have brewed, if not THE best. But here's the catch - I have to say that I'm a little disappointed in the hop flavors not sustaining through the sip. It seems to fall off quickly. That's the best way I can describe it. Maybe this will change with some conditioning, hopefully. And I've had this with other hop-forward beers I've brewed. So perhaps it's my process. But considering the amount of hops used in the recipe and how phenomenal the aroma is, I was hoping to get more strength and follow-through in the hop flavor. But the flavor just doesn't parallel the nose and seems to fall off mid-sip. So my inclination is to move more hops back to the boil or have a two step hop stand, flameout and then 170F, to extract more flavor.

    This batch fermented so fast that I threw in the "fermentation" dry hop when it was 1.016. So well past the 70% (1.027) of fermentation goal that we set. So maybe I lost out on a bit of the biotransformation contributions to flavor? Who knows? But I'd like to revisit this soon to try to dial it in. Any similar impressions/suggestions?

    [​IMG]
     
  4. VikeMan

    VikeMan Poo-Bah (1,962) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
    Society

    That looks delicious!
     
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  5. scurvy311

    scurvy311 Aspirant (246) Dec 3, 2005 Louisiana

    I would agree with your assessment. Not having access to the beers this is meant to emulate, I can't speak for mine being anything more than a fantastic, hazy NEIPA. It has settled in, after a week or 2 on CO2 into a fantastic beer. I would def leave out the Mosaic, assuming that's what is contributing the subtle "onion/sweaty foot" flavor and aroma. I'd either make up for it with citra and/or galaxy or throw in another fruity hop for variety. All in all, I think this yeast was the right way to go and the lynchpin of the recipe compared to the recipe I did, which was very similar but used Gigayeast Vermont Ale yeast instead. This beer is killing it with those who had had our local hazy hoppy ipas. This is def getting a rebrew next spring.
     
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  6. pweis909

    pweis909 Poo-Bah (1,907) Aug 13, 2005 Wisconsin
    Society

    I guess the simplest answer is to my observation is that I am not isomerizing alpha acids in the whirlpool to the extent the beersmith equation predicts. There likely are temperature impacts that do not appear to be taken into consideration. There may be other considerations like whirlpool action, wort chemistry, personal magnetic fields, and bad luck.
     
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  7. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Poo-Bah (4,942) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society

    Peter, I agree with you in that there is a dynamic aspect here which may be very challenging to model (i.e., create an equation that is valid across a number of conditions). Maybe someday a scientist (e.g., a graduate student of Oregon State University) will take this on for future study.

    Cheers!

    @Peter_Wolfe
     
  8. pweis909

    pweis909 Poo-Bah (1,907) Aug 13, 2005 Wisconsin
    Society

    I should add that when I first posted about this, I said "perceived bitterness" with a back of the mind thought that there could be something odd going on at the human end of things. I have no idea what that might be, but focusing on what is going on in the kettle is an easier place to start.
     
  9. JohnConnorforealthistime

    JohnConnorforealthistime Initiate (0) Mar 10, 2016 Wisconsin

    Is there a link to the final recipe somewhere that I'm not seeing?
     
  10. Supergenious

    Supergenious Disciple (367) May 9, 2011 Michigan

  11. cultbaus

    cultbaus Initiate (0) Jul 8, 2016 California

    [​IMG]

    Just added the first dry hop addition, I need this in my face NOW.
     
  12. koopa

    koopa Initiate (0) Apr 20, 2008 New Jersey

    With that approach, the yeast will be drinking lots of oxygen :wink:
     
  13. KCUnited

    KCUnited Initiate (194) Nov 11, 2014 Illinois
    Trader

    I too wasn't able to get a gravity reading until day 3 of fermentation and was at 1.016 before adding my fermentation hops. I agree with your entire post. Really good attempt, but the hop juice flavor did not linger after swallow, which is where I fell short. Looking forward to brewing again and shoring up my dry hop process to determine how it effects the flavor. Really enjoyable beer as it is though.

    2 weeks on CO2. I struggled to find a decent light source today:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  14. brunascle

    brunascle Initiate (43) Nov 4, 2010 Massachusetts

    Delicious. I also missed the timing for the dry hops, after two days it was already at 1.017.

    Oh, and I managed to pick up something from Tree House for the first time, King Julius, I lucked out. And I think I have to retract my earlier objections to honey malt. Pretty sure I taste it, and it works for them.

    [​IMG]
     
  15. Lazhal

    Lazhal Devotee (470) Mar 13, 2011 Michigan
    Trader

    Hello all. First time brewer here. Just had some questions about your method for tackling this beer.

    How long are you going between fermentation dry hop and traditional dry hop addition?

    How long are you going between traditional dry hop and bottling?

    Is it always gravity based, and if so, are you taking daily (or almost daily) readings?
     
  16. Curmudgeon

    Curmudgeon Initiate (92) May 29, 2014 Massachusetts

    Brewed this Saturday, September 3rd. Made a 1.5L starter and like some of you posted, this was an excited batch of yeast! Very active on days 2 and 3. The starter was probably 70F and I pitched it to 66-68F wort. My swamp cooler was a bit too cool to start (around 61-62F) but by the next day it was around 70F so I added some ice water bottles to try to bring it to the mid 60sF range. Here it is September 7th and I'm thinking I may have passed that sweet spot of 70% fermentation complete.

    Anyway, I plan on taking a reading tonight and adding the "biotransformation/fermentation" hops. How do you guys do it? I have pellets. Use a muslin bag/nylon? Just toss'em in? I'm thinking of just tossing in and letting them free float to get maximum contact with the wort/yeast. I'm afraid they may just rest on top of the krausen though. If they float on top, will they eventually drop down and in? After this first round, I will be racking to a keg for the traditional dry hopping portion.

    *Sidenote: A couple weeks before this, I tried brewing the "Hoppy Things" recipe by Nate Lanier. That batch is being dry hopped in a keg currently and will be carbonated soon. I'm new to brewing and I made some (hopefully not fatal) errors but will be fun comparing these two!
     
  17. Curmudgeon

    Curmudgeon Initiate (92) May 29, 2014 Massachusetts

    I'll take a stab at these and the veterans can put me in my place later.
    How long b/t fermentation dry hop and traditional dry hop? I would think 99% of the time you'd do this until you hit your final gravity.
    How long b/t traditional dry hop and bottling? I think this is more of a personal preference/dialing in question. I think people used to agree that dry hopping for 7-10 days was the norm? Recently, there have been articles saying you only need a few days (3-4?). I think this is something we'll have to "play with" and figure out what we like best. I mean, shoot, then you can get all crazy about taking the hops out, leaving them in, hanging them from the inside of the keg, etc. etc. So many ways to do it.

    I think a daily reading is excessive. The veteran guys who are dialed in probably know lots of yeast strains, their malts, their equipment etc. and can take minimal readings based off of their past experiences. New brewers like us will probably take more. And this recipe I'm taking my first (mid fermentation) reading tonight to see how close I am to that 70% point. My next reading will be when I think I've hit my final gravity. If I take that one and I'm not there, I will wait (a day, a few days maybe) to see if it drops more. If/When I hit final gravity, I will do a 3-4 traditional dry hop (in a keg but can be carboy/bucket of course) and then bottle/keg.

    I bottled before hitting my final gravity once. After asking people here about that, I decided to crack my bottles open and recap to be safe. What a PITA!! Glad I wait for my FG and keg now.
     
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  18. cultbaus

    cultbaus Initiate (0) Jul 8, 2016 California

    I put my dry hop additions in a muslin bag and weigh it down with marbles so it stays down.
     
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  19. brunascle

    brunascle Initiate (43) Nov 4, 2010 Massachusetts

    I do the same (with a nylon bag) and get great results from it in terms of aroma. But I'm a little concerned about the massive off-gassing that happens when I drop it in, that it might be oxygen/air and oxidizing my beer.

    Next time I'm going to try leaving the bag at the surface and see if there's a noticeable difference either in aroma or oxidation.
     
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  20. drink1121

    drink1121 Initiate (0) Mar 23, 2009 California

    @scurvy311 whats the fitting you have for the conical to go into the keg?
     
  21. scurvy311

    scurvy311 Aspirant (246) Dec 3, 2005 Louisiana

    Its the standard beer line that had a screw on barb for a pin lock beer out on the other end. I went to my local hardware store and found a fitting that screwed into the valve and had a barb on the other end that fit snug into the beerline.
    [​IMG]
     
  22. Curmudgeon

    Curmudgeon Initiate (92) May 29, 2014 Massachusetts

    cultbaus, brunascle, thanks. I used a hop bag and some marbles. When I dropped it in, it gently fell on the krausen and did a Terminator 2 slow drop into the krausen and slowly sank beneath. Was surprised at how peaceful it was. I should've used two bags though; was a wicked tight squeeze through the small hole in my glass carboy. I wanted to toss them in naked but thought they'd just hang out on top of the krausen most of the time.
     
  23. tepee28

    tepee28 Initiate (0) Dec 18, 2010 New York

    [​IMG]This is a delicious beer, probably the best I've brewed to date. My first AG attempt with biab, and It exceeded expectations. Thanks to all who participated, especially Vikeman, for compiling the data and posting the recipe. Will brew this again when the keg kicks.
     
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  24. Curmudgeon

    Curmudgeon Initiate (92) May 29, 2014 Massachusetts

    Sorry if I missed it - what are you guys shooting for for volumes of CO2 for this? Thanks.
     
  25. brunascle

    brunascle Initiate (43) Nov 4, 2010 Massachusetts

    I went with my usual 2.4 for IPAs, but I feel like it's a little high. I think typical NE IPAs tend to be a little lower than the average IPA.
     
  26. Curmudgeon

    Curmudgeon Initiate (92) May 29, 2014 Massachusetts

    Thanks, brunascle. Ok, I think I'll shoot for around 2.2. Now the wait.
     
  27. HopsintheSack

    HopsintheSack Initiate (0) Apr 17, 2012 California

    Thanks to Vikeman and everyone who voted. Beer came out great, although I was rushing on keg day and totally forgot to purge with co2. Unfortunately it is oxidizing quickly, so I have to drink it fast. Worked out as I brought a few growlers worth to a birthday party to share.

    [​IMG]
     
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  28. scurvy311

    scurvy311 Aspirant (246) Dec 3, 2005 Louisiana

    [​IMG]
    Nooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!! It never fails. The keg just kicked. Almost 14 years later, and I still struggle with the patience needed to allow the beer to reach its peak before consuming. I set 2 bombers aside for Bayou Beerfest and 2-12s aside for Vikeman. This one is def getting a rebrew in the spring.
     
  29. TheAleRunner

    TheAleRunner Initiate (0) Feb 27, 2013 Louisiana

    I got to try a bottle of this in late August and it was fantastic. It was right up my alley. I'm generally sensitive to Mosaic, and did not get the qualities I don't like from that hop in this beer.

    Brewed my own version of this Wednesday evening, but sans Mosaic (added Nelson Sauvin and Amarillo in its place). It's fermenting away now and I'll be adding the first charge of dry hops either this evening or in the morning.
     
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  30. csurowiec

    csurowiec Initiate (0) Mar 7, 2010 Maryland

    Thank you to everyone who answered all the polls to assemble this excellent recipe. I brewed a close variation of this recently and just kegged it yesterday. I added the last dry hop when I kegged it. A few minutes ago I tasted it and have a question. The hop flavor has grown tremendously in the last 24 hours and though it tastes wonderful now, I'm concerned it will become too much. When should I pull the hop bag in the keg?
     
  31. Soneast

    Soneast Champion (830) May 9, 2008 Wisconsin

    Too much hop flavor? Sacrilege. lol

    But seriously, I leave my hops in for the duration of the beer's lifespan with no problems at all. A lot of people claim the flavor can get grassy, but I have never experienced that. This brulosophy experiment seems to agree with my own experiences, but your results may vary. Personally I'd just leave them in there.

    http://brulosophy.com/2016/06/27/warm-dry-hop-vs-cold-keg-hop-exbeeriment-results/
     
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  32. Curmudgeon

    Curmudgeon Initiate (92) May 29, 2014 Massachusetts

    Way behind on this one but here's mine. Love it. I won't get into descriptors, I'm getting all the great stuff you guys have already reported on. Mine is a bit light/thin. I'm pretty sure this is due to me still dialing in. This was my 3rd all grain batch and I've been finishing under my target OG. Pre-boil OG target was 1.052 and hit 1.049 but the post boil gravity is where I'm come in real low. Recipe called for 1.062 and I was at 1.055. FG was 1.011. That being said, it still smells and tastes great.

    Friends are asking, "You brewed this?!?" and I have to reply, "Yeah, but this is all Vikeman." Thanks Vikeman! This brew really boosted my confidence and makes me feel like I can brew great beer. It's like Doc says, "If you put your mind to it, you can accomplish anything."
    [​IMG]
     
  33. Soneast

    Soneast Champion (830) May 9, 2008 Wisconsin

    Well here she is, noted all the comments on lack of bitterness so I did up the IBUs a bit with a small 60 minute addition, so I think it is not quite as lacking in the finish as what others are experiencing. Really tasty though, very fruity, and it does indeed have a nice mouthfeel. And of course cloudy as hell lol. Nailed the OG, though it finished at 1.007, but due to the other mouthfeel enhancing attributes it doesn't seem particularly thin, in fact it drinks real nice. Quite a slammer, IMO. BTW it has been in the keg for 2 weeks at this point.

    [​IMG]
     
    #73 Soneast, Oct 17, 2016
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2016
  34. Ten_SeventySix_Brewhouse

    Ten_SeventySix_Brewhouse Initiate (146) Jul 20, 2016 Indiana

    Thinking of brewing this recipe this weekend with Southern Hemisphere hops and dry yeast. I was thinking Mangrove Jack's M07.

    I don't have a kegging setup yet, so I'd have to bottle this. Has anyone bottled this or any other NE IPA? Will the haze and hop flavor/aroma stick around through carbonating and bottle conditioning?
     
  35. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Poo-Bah (4,942) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society

    The beer will remain hazy. Just like happens with commercially packaged hoppy beers the hop aroma will fade fairly quickly (in a few weeks) and the hop flavor will fade over a few months.

    My 'solution' is that I have a wife who is a HUGE hop-head and my hoppy beers do not last too long. The last hoppy beer I brewed was a clone of Trillium Galaxy Fort Point Pale Ale and my wife drank the last two bottles when they were a little over two months old. The beer was still very tasty at that point but the hop aroma was diminished as compared to when the beer was 1 month old.

    Drink quickly and enjoy!!:slight_smile:

    Cheers!
     
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  36. SFACRKnight

    SFACRKnight Poo-Bah (1,820) Jan 20, 2012 Colorado
    Society Trader

    Jack,
    Cleaned up my "cellar", and have side by side pics of the april experiment, 1318 never dropped clear like 1056 despite my earlier post that it had. Pics to come after I tear my wife off the computer. Post grad work trumps beer pics for now.
     
  37. Ten_SeventySix_Brewhouse

    Ten_SeventySix_Brewhouse Initiate (146) Jul 20, 2016 Indiana

    I ended up brewing this with Nelson Sauvin, Galaxy, and Motueka. Plus 5 ml of CTZ resin at 60 minutes, since I read some people had too low bitterness with this recipe. I also added 1/2# sugar to up the ABV. As I am not ready to start messing with yeast starters, 2 packs of Mangrove Jack's M07 worked wonderfully for me.

    Turned out great! The best beer I have made to date by a long shot. (Perhaps only because I overcarbonated my last IPA. I loved it before that happened.) My only regret is using Nelson Sauvin. I taste a little something in there I don't particularly care for, and I think it's a slight wine-like character from the Nelson.

    [​IMG]
    Flash was on for this photo.
     
  38. Ten_SeventySix_Brewhouse

    Ten_SeventySix_Brewhouse Initiate (146) Jul 20, 2016 Indiana

    The beer has dropped clear now. Can't say I'm as impressed with it as I was initially; these beers really are meant to be consumed fresh. I plan on brewing a similar recipe with some modifications soon and kegging it. Hopefully that makes a big difference over bottling.
     
  39. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Poo-Bah (4,942) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society

    Is there something unique here with respect to preferring this beer when it was fresher?

    I am not a big fan of my hoppy beers when they are a few months old whether they be the so called 'NE' style IPA or 'regular' IPA style. The hop fade that occurs over time is a non-plus to me regardless.

    Cheers!
     
  40. Ten_SeventySix_Brewhouse

    Ten_SeventySix_Brewhouse Initiate (146) Jul 20, 2016 Indiana

    Certainly, hop fade isn't unique to NE style IPAs. I was just thinking the the difference would be greater after a few months in a batch with 12-16 Oz of hops than it would be in an IPA where you only used, say, 6 Oz of hops. I'm guessing that for the IPA I just kegged where I used 8 Oz Chinook and 4 Oz Comet, timely consumption will be just as crucial, flavor-wise.

    The thing that is unique about NE IPAs as they age, though, is the clarity. They start hazy, then drop clear after months in the fridge. That is, unless you want to start up the flour discussion. If you want a hazy NE IPA, it must be fresh. If you want a clear west coast IPA, it can also be fresh.
     
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