The (NAS) on Whiskey Labels

Discussion in 'Other Beverages' started by gatornation, May 2, 2019.

  1. gatornation

    gatornation Poo-Bah (4,971) Apr 18, 2007 Minnesota
    Trader

    I enjoy Bourbon & Rye but admitting I'm still a novice,love this new forum BTW. My question is why are distiller's putting the Age Statement to the back of the bottle or removing it all together? Is it to re --introduce a labeled 10 or 12 YO product for a more premium price, or is it a supply issue to get product out to store's. Are most premium bottles 6-8 years anyway weather they are straight, BIB, or single barrel. Confused by this loads of folks on here with more knowledge than me. Please discuss.
     
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  2. TimG_0913

    TimG_0913 Aspirant (242) Oct 6, 2014 Delaware
    Trader

    I'm really not sure why they are doing it. But generally speaking the BIB bourbons are the ones to watch out for, due to the fact they have the most "rules." Definitely quality material, not taking anything from others, but you know what I mean. Single barrel is exactly what it states and most will put that on their bottles cause it is more of a "premium" product. Not blending multiple barrels to get a certain flavor profile. Hence why store picks trade or sell for a little higher than the regular bottles.

    Hope this helped a little. Anymore questions or anything ask away.
     
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  3. TimG_0913

    TimG_0913 Aspirant (242) Oct 6, 2014 Delaware
    Trader

    And all scotch, bourbon, Japanese and Canadian is whisk(e)y, not all of it is bourbon. Bourbon has to made in USA and no less than 51% corn, RYES are not bourbons, they are rye whiskeys due to the fact they mash bill is 51% or high rye.
     
  4. Squire

    Squire Poo-Bah (2,154) Jul 16, 2015 Mississippi
    Society Trader

    It's the old switcharoo, like when Ancient Age 10 year old became Ancient Age 10 Star which was actually a six year old whisky. Producers move the age statement off the front label and when the old stock has been replaced by new bottlings, and consumers have grown accustomed to the new label, often omit references to age entirely.

    The hard business fact is it costs money to age whisky. Not just maintenance of the warehouse but labor involved in running the place and especially insurance. Yes, insurance costs, think about it for a moment, the average 7 story Bourbon warehouse contains about 20,000 barrels of 53 gallons each which is over a million gallons of highly flammable liquid stored in wooden containers. That and oak wood is porous so there is also evaporation happening over the years of aging.

    In short producers need to get whisky out of the barrel and into a bottle as quickly as is commercially viable to realize the most monetary gain. If they can replace a 10 year old brand with a six and not suffer loss of sales then that's the right business decision.

    Perhaps I should mention I'm somewhat sanguine about age statements on Bourbon generally. Under modern distilling practices (140 proof off the still, 125 proof on barrel entry) the whisky will reach maturity somewhere between 6-8 years depending on where the barrel is situate in the warehouse. Less time if it's sizzling under a hot roof on the top floor, more time in a cool corner on the bottom floor. I don't care how old it is, I care about how mature it is.
     
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  5. TimG_0913

    TimG_0913 Aspirant (242) Oct 6, 2014 Delaware
    Trader

    Also with this being said, when the blend whiskeys together the age statement on the bottle (if any) has to be the youngest of whatever whiskeys are being blended,( i.e a 4 yr blended with 8 yr if there is an age statement it would have to be 4).

    Also with bourbon it has to be in new oak barrels for no less than 4 years.
     
  6. thesherrybomber

    thesherrybomber Aspirant (258) Jun 13, 2017 California
    Society Trader

    I've always thought it would make more sense to group them all together under "American whiskey", since the only difference sometimes are mashbills (some ryes, for example, are practically bourbon, with the rye and corn percentages being almost 50/50 - same as a high rye bourbon). Same thing with wheat whiskies.

    Otherwise, everything else is the same.
     
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  7. TimG_0913

    TimG_0913 Aspirant (242) Oct 6, 2014 Delaware
    Trader

    Not sure what you mean. Bourbon has set rules, same as scotch (made in scotland). Bourbon must be minimum 51% corn, ryes minimum 51% rye, and I guess it distinguishes it a bit more. Defines the whiskey world and makes it a little more complicated. Lol
     
  8. thesherrybomber

    thesherrybomber Aspirant (258) Jun 13, 2017 California
    Society Trader

    Well, that's what I mean: the rules for rye whiskey, wheat whiskey, corn whiskey, are basically the same as for bourbon (each must be at least 51% rye/wheat/corn, distilled no more than 160 proof, aged in new, charred oak barrels).

    With rye, you have Canadian and American, which are like night and day, so there's some potential for confusion. I think with Canadian, even if it contains a small amount of rye, it must be labeled "rye".

    With Irish and Scotch, you get so many variations (pot still, blends, single malts, single grain, etc.) but no one would say they aren't Irish or Scotch!
     
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  9. TimG_0913

    TimG_0913 Aspirant (242) Oct 6, 2014 Delaware
    Trader

    And I'm not sure about the wheated part. I'm pretty sure "wheated" bourbons are just out of the norm 51% corn, rye, wheat. Meaning in most bourbon the rye is 2nd in mash bill, but with wheated bourbons, wheat is the end on the mash bill.

    And it also probably has to do with laws in other countries and such as well, it's a big topic and we can discuss it all day However, we just have to follow the rules laid in front of us. Haha
     
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  10. Highbrow

    Highbrow Devotee (434) Jan 7, 2011 California
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    does corn require age &/or new charred oak?
     
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  11. thesherrybomber

    thesherrybomber Aspirant (258) Jun 13, 2017 California
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  12. TimG_0913

    TimG_0913 Aspirant (242) Oct 6, 2014 Delaware
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    Only bourbon requires a new oak charred barrel. And bourbon mash is 51% corn.
     
  13. TimG_0913

    TimG_0913 Aspirant (242) Oct 6, 2014 Delaware
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    Ah four grain like the EHT "four grain" and I think we are getting a little of subject. I'm just saying that bourbon, scotch, etc has their own rules and regs and makes them what they are.
     
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  14. thesherrybomber

    thesherrybomber Aspirant (258) Jun 13, 2017 California
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    Apparently, if aged, at least two years in new charred oak barrels, less than 125 proof

    Sorry, messed up. Corn whiskey has to be at least 80%, unlike bourbon, which is 51%. I think that's the major difference
     
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  15. TimG_0913

    TimG_0913 Aspirant (242) Oct 6, 2014 Delaware
    Trader

    I mean we are talking about "bourbon" vs "whisk(e)y"

    All of it is whisk(e)y, all of the rules are what make them unique in their own ways.

    But nonetheless, all of it can be enjoyed, and people have their own preferences to what they like.
     
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  16. Squire

    Squire Poo-Bah (2,154) Jul 16, 2015 Mississippi
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    The age statement is ironclad under our laws and those of every whisky producing nation (Canada, Scotland, Ireland, Jamaica, etc.) with which we have trade agreements. If the label says 8 years old every drop of whisky in the bottle must be at least 8 years old. That's a baseline, of course producers can add older whiskys in the mix.

    I haven't checked the law recently but I believe two years is the minimum aging requirement for an otherwise conforming whisky to be labeled as Straight Bourbon.
     
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  17. TimG_0913

    TimG_0913 Aspirant (242) Oct 6, 2014 Delaware
    Trader

    Yes it's still 2 years, but must have age statement if less than 4 years old. And if the age statement says 4 or whatever does not mean that all of it is 4 years old. Just means that the youngest blend was matured for 4 years. The youngest mature date has to be the age statement
     
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  18. Highbrow

    Highbrow Devotee (434) Jan 7, 2011 California
    Trader

    i mean most of what little i've been through did not come from a store or reputable label:wink:, but i feel pretty certain corn does not have to be aged at all & can be aged in re-filled oak (new, charred isn't required - so i thought). it's definitely not my area of expertise, but that was my understanding.
     
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  19. TimG_0913

    TimG_0913 Aspirant (242) Oct 6, 2014 Delaware
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    New charred oak barrels is a must for bourbon.
     
  20. thesherrybomber

    thesherrybomber Aspirant (258) Jun 13, 2017 California
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    Unlike other American whiskey styles, corn whiskey does not need wood aging at all. If aged, it must be in uncharred or previously used oak barrels and must be barreled at lower than 125 proof (62.5% abv). In contrast, a whiskey distilled from a mash consisting of at least 80% corn in a charred new oak barrel would be considered bourbon. Aging is usually brief – six months or less – during which time the whiskey absorbs color and flavor from the barrel while the off-flavors and fusel alcohols are reduced. A variant called straight corn whiskey is also produced, in which the whiskey is stored in used or uncharred new oak containers for two years or more. Whiskeys produced in this manner and aged for at least four years can be designated bottled in bond if they meet additional requirements.

    Straight corn whiskey must be aged in used oak for 2+ years, sorry.
     
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  21. TimG_0913

    TimG_0913 Aspirant (242) Oct 6, 2014 Delaware
    Trader

    We are going in circles here. I'm speaking strictly about BOURBON not other American whiskeys, etc In order to be classified as a bourbon must be in new charred oak barrels.
     
  22. gatornation

    gatornation Poo-Bah (4,971) Apr 18, 2007 Minnesota
    Trader

    Interesting thought on that @Squire . Thanks. Depending on the age (say 10 YO)that would be 40 seasons of aging. So the sweetest spots in the warehouse is huge . Two question's.. How does the change of seasons affect this and are barrels rotated to different floors for equal seasons of cold/hot or do they stay put as is? Secondly are the warehouses temperature controlled?
     
  23. Squire

    Squire Poo-Bah (2,154) Jul 16, 2015 Mississippi
    Society Trader

    Rotating barrels within the warehouse was a common practice many years ago but that has since been phased out. Makers Mark is the last distillery I'm aware of that carried out a limited rotation but I understand that stopped when the Japanese bought the place.

    Artificial temperature control is an idea that has kicked around for the last hundred years or so but Brown-Foreman is the only distiller that still may be using temperature controlled warehouses.
     
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  24. gatornation

    gatornation Poo-Bah (4,971) Apr 18, 2007 Minnesota
    Trader

    Top floor could get alot of heat in summer in Kentucky then.
     
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