"The problem with forced rankings" by Seth Godin

Discussion in 'Beer Talk' started by speakorspasm, May 25, 2018.

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  1. speakorspasm

    speakorspasm Zealot (591) Jan 14, 2006 Massachusetts

    http://sethgodin.typepad.com/seths_blog/2018/05/the-problem-with-forced-rankings.html

    This was shared on FB recently and has prompted some great discussion with industry friends of mine. I do appreciate the irony of posting a thread here, on a site that was designed for ranking, but I don't see it as an indictment of rating and ranking as a whole. Rather, I think the problem lies with reading those rankings prior to making a purchasing decision.... something that I know that I am guilty of as a consumer almost daily.

    I think being the "best" as ranked by BAs, or any other population, means something. But heavy lies the crown.
     
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  2. NeroFiddled

    NeroFiddled Grand High Pooh-Bah (7,122) Jul 8, 2002 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah Society Trader

    I totally agree. But I don't believe in "the best" myself. Simply buying something that's "the best" is for people who cannot think for themselves, or for people who are so shallow that they need the prestige of having "the best". These lists can be a useful tool for some guidance though, giving at least a general idea of what's out there and where to start looking.
     
  3. TongoRad

    TongoRad Grand Pooh-Bah (3,848) Jun 3, 2004 New Jersey
    Pooh-Bah Society Trader

    Exactly. There is no singular best, and that's such a limiting way to look at things anyway. There certainly can be a top echelon, however, of many examples with different approaches.

    I always just think of these lists as "Here's some beers that you might enjoy", and don't sweat it beyond that .
     
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  4. ypsifly

    ypsifly Initiate (0) Sep 22, 2004 Michigan

    People laugh when I tell them there was a time when we could buy beer without using a cell phone.
     
  5. Celtics76

    Celtics76 Pooh-Bah (1,769) Sep 5, 2011 Rhode Island
    Pooh-Bah Society

    Seems to be an anti-rating vibe here recently. I use untappd/BA when making purchases just to avoid an obvious dud, but I'm not one of the many people who refuse to buy any beer rated below a 4.2 or whatever. That's ridiculous.

    I've enjoyed many beers over the years rated average or slighty above. Everyone has different tastes.
     
  6. OffTrail

    OffTrail Devotee (387) Aug 12, 2012 Washington

    Thanks for posting this. Good food for thought. BA beer rankings don't have national importance, but the effect of college rankings does.
     
  7. thebeers

    thebeers Grand Pooh-Bah (5,393) Sep 10, 2014 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah Society Trader

    That's the exact reason I started using BA. Moved back to PA, and the prices were so high, I didn't want to "invest" in a six pack based off the packaging copy alone anymore. :grin:

    Where this site does better than others is in encouraging thoughtful reviews. I do find those a lot more useful than the ratings on their own.
     
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  8. Zorro

    Zorro Grand Pooh-Bah (3,258) Dec 25, 2003 California
    Pooh-Bah

  9. speakorspasm

    speakorspasm Zealot (591) Jan 14, 2006 Massachusetts

    Hmm. I don't think I made my views on this very clear. And, maybe I am not sure myself exactly how I feel about it. But I think @NeroFiddled got me a bit closer, thanks.

    Ratings are one thing. "Best______" however, be it IPA, Bar, Brewery, etc, is another. I heard a story recently about a bar that was awarded "best burger" in some national publication. People began flocking there, and ripping their burger for not living up to expectations. They ended up closing up shop for renovations and to "reconsider their business model" for some time, though they have since reopened. This, and the Shaun Hill article being discussed here got me thinking about the article I posted.

    Personally I like a story or a relationship to sell me a beer, because I like to know how people connect with what they consume.
     
  10. rozzom

    rozzom Pooh-Bah (2,534) Jan 22, 2011 New York
    Pooh-Bah Trader

    I think I’m on the same page as most of you

    Ratings good - if you’re visiting another part of the country, are dealing with unknown breweries, and want to make an informed decision when you only have time to try one or two beers.

    Ratings bad - if you’re one of those people that won’t touch something below a 4.25 / exclusively making decisions based on ratings. You’re missing out
     
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  11. dennis3951

    dennis3951 Initiate (0) Mar 6, 2008 New Jersey

    There is no "best" beer.
    There is no "best" IPA
    There is no "best" Pilsner
    There is no "best" brew of any style.
    There are outstanding examples of every style including AALs.
     
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  12. dennis3951

    dennis3951 Initiate (0) Mar 6, 2008 New Jersey

    I laugh when eye sea someone using a sell phone two Dee side watt beer two by!
     
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  13. bubseymour

    bubseymour Grand Pooh-Bah (4,656) Oct 30, 2010 Maryland
    Pooh-Bah Society Trader

    Yes things aren't linear. Tiers, that's the answer. and the couple at the bottom of a tier and the couple at the top of the next lower tier...those are your "bubble".
     
  14. bbtkd

    bbtkd Grand High Pooh-Bah (7,326) Sep 20, 2015 South Dakota
    Pooh-Bah Society Trader

    I use BA ratings when deciding whether to buy a beer. If a beer I am considering has a rating of 3.5 or lower, I probably won't get it since buying low-rated beer has not gone well. Life is too short to buy beers that probably suck. I'll only buy them if there is a moderate or low chance they'll suck. For this reason, I rarely get a beer when at a chain restaurant since they usually don't have any real craft that I would like, so I'll get a diet Coke - better than choking down a lousy beer just to have a beer.
     
  15. pat61

    pat61 Initiate (0) Dec 29, 2010 Minnesota

    Too often "the best" is the result of a popularity contest, I look more at the reviews. Ratings for some beer that people don't understand like wild ales, some older classic styles, and attempts at innovation that do not necessarily fit a style might get lower ratings than they might deserve. A handful of thoughtful reviews is worth more than a bushel of ratings with little or no content.
     
  16. cmiller4642

    cmiller4642 Initiate (0) Aug 17, 2013 West Virginia

    That list is so people can overhype their "whalez". I've had plenty of awesome IPA's that aren't even on the top 250. You can't tell me that Creeper from Columbus Brewing Company (an amazingly tasty and awesome beer) is that worse than something from Tree House or Trillium just because it's not on that list.

    I'm sure Heady Topper and Julius are great beers, but there's no way they're on a completely different level than the best fresh IPA's from your local scene that are more easily obtainable if you don't live in NE.
     
    #16 cmiller4642, May 26, 2018
    Last edited: May 26, 2018
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  17. cavedave

    cavedave Grand Pooh-Bah (4,145) Mar 12, 2009 New York
    Pooh-Bah Society Trader

    Rankings are worthless. I try my best to ignore them. Reviews are helpful to me. I read them and find ones from people who I judge, by their reviews, are similar to me, and use them to decide whether to buy a beer or not. Not saying reviews ought to be helpful for others, or that rankings/ratings are useless for everyone. Just saying this is how it is for me.
     
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  18. mmmbeerNY

    mmmbeerNY Maven (1,345) Mar 5, 2014 New York

    I read the reviews for how they describe the beer. The # rating really is not really what I'm looking for.
     
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  19. Retroman40

    Retroman40 Savant (1,098) Dec 7, 2013 Florida

    Numbers mean little to me regarding any ranking/rating scheme. I look at reviews. I want to know why someone rated something a 5 (or a 1 for that matter). If a 1 gets a "this just sucks" it is not particularly useful. Same goes with a 5 with a "best I ever had".
     
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  20. drtth

    drtth Initiate (0) Nov 25, 2007 Pennsylvania
    In Memoriam

    The problem with that blog post is that there is more than one hidden problem with rankings.

    One problem with rankings is that when there is a group of things being ranked, some other score is typically being used to determine that ranking. If the differences between those scores being to create the ranking are so small as to be meaningless, the rank order created is misleading unless it lumps several things into a single rank where all are considered to be, and are treated as being, pretty much equivalent to the others.

    In addition, when creating a ranking, one has to pay very careful attention to the possible differences between sub-categories. There are lots of football teams in the world. If you put all of the US rules football teams, all the Canadian rules football teams, all the Australian rules football teams, all of the Rugby football teams, and all the Association football teams (known in the US as Soccer teams) into a single bucket you could create an overall ranking where each football team has a different rank order. The question is would that ranking really mean anything worth knowing with all the sub-categories munged together into that single group?
     
    #20 drtth, May 26, 2018
    Last edited: May 26, 2018
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