thoughts on $4$ trades

Discussion in 'Trade Talk' started by bolognasuave, Apr 28, 2015.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. bolognasuave

    bolognasuave Initiate (0) Jan 5, 2015 Illinois

    I've recently come across a lot of people lately that don't want to trade unless its $4$. Now I understand the want for this, however it never really is $4$. Shipping cost for sending one bomber vs. a 6 pack is clearly going to cost more. Its supply and demand. Has anybody else come across any ignorance in the terms of $4$ trades? I had a guy refuse a trade for a bottle of my Dark Lord '15 cause he seen '14 was on sale at 3F, for $20, and thought he was getting jipped cause his was "valued" at more than $20.
  2. InsuranceGuy

    InsuranceGuy Initiate (0) Nov 9, 2011 Delaware

    This is just me, but I only trade $4$ excluding the shipping costs, which is just a cost of doing business. This isn't an activity to make money, so why try to inflate the value of the brew over what you actually paid for it?
  3. draheim

    draheim Poo-Bah (3,080) Sep 18, 2010 Washington

    The only fair trade is one to which both parties agree.
  4. BBThunderbolt

    BBThunderbolt Poo-Bah (9,997) Sep 24, 2007 Kiribati
    Society Trader

    I don't trade a lot, but when I do, it's almost always $4$.
    rozzom, aasher, montman and 3 others like this.
  5. TheVerbalHermanMunster

    TheVerbalHermanMunster Initiate (0) Dec 3, 2014 Iowa

    $4$ is the only way I go. I usually cut bait on a guy if he starts talking about a perceived value.
  6. DraftDaddy

    DraftDaddy Disciple (318) Jan 28, 2015 Illinois

    I hear you. Zombie sells for $10 at FFF but $16-$18 at the shops by me. I just bought a bomber of Permanent Funeral for $16 the same time they were selling for $10 at the brewery.
  7. ESeab

    ESeab Initiate (0) Jan 3, 2013 New Jersey

    I dont trade, so I dont get it
    mrhartounian likes this.
  8. InsuranceGuy

    InsuranceGuy Initiate (0) Nov 9, 2011 Delaware

    I'm doing an IP trade tomorrow for some Weyerbacher SMS. I paid $14 for the 4pk but I know it's selling for $14-20 depending upon the market. Guess what I'm expecting in return? $14 worth of beer (or cash, tbd). I'm not trying to make a buck off of someone's desire to try a beer that they couldn't otherwise obtain.
  9. jrnyc

    jrnyc Meyvn (1,171) Mar 21, 2010 New York

    Its not the stock market, when words like value start entering the picture, a lot of people are going to check out. For me it is trading beer I have for beer I want. It is not about maximizing every ounce of beer. This approach has made me some great friends and now great beer just finds me.

    To each his own, but anyone who is trying to "win" every trade, they might win in the short term, but they will lose out in the long term.
  10. KSOZE

    KSOZE Initiate (0) Feb 10, 2015 Ohio

    ^This. My limited and new trade experience involves $4$ being on the beer value only - excluding shipping. It's all about making sure things stay as "fair" as possible. I don't need the trade to equal exactly, but $4$ is a nice starting point.
    jrnyc likes this.
  11. lambpasty

    lambpasty Initiate (0) May 3, 2013 New Hampshire

    I feel like $4$ is a good way to go until you begin to establish a good relationship with a regular trade partner, then probably feel it out after that. I don't trade on these forums yet but when I start I will assume people want $4$ as I'll be a newbie, and I'm OK with that. I would assume though that the $ excludes shipping.
  12. chipawayboy

    chipawayboy Devotee (474) Oct 26, 2007 Massachusetts

    I've traded w/3-4 folks regularly for over a year (and 12 or so total during that time). Only once -- very early -- did I do anything other than $4$. $4$ is simple and gets the deal done quick. If u have to get all complicated ("My 4 pack of Heady is really worth $32 when you factor in the gas I had to buy to drive from NJ to VT") -- it will dramatically lessen the ease/frequency and success of trades.
    chrisjws likes this.
  13. chrisjws

    chrisjws Savant (902) Dec 3, 2014 California

    I've had an issue or two with this. I'm not that picky as long as we're both feeling like we're getting a good trade. I've had a few people want me to up the ratio on Pliny to even the $ out, and honestly I have a limited amount therefore I generally can't. Second, when I have fresh Pliny I usually will be entertaining multiple options so when someone gives me a take it or leave it deal I don't like, I don't hesitate for a second to leave it. I don't know about "perceived value", but there's certainly some beers that aren't expensive if you can get them, but they're very much in demand here and therefore can command better than exact $4$.

    Bottom line, if everyone is happy, agree to the trade. If not, then move on and trade with someone else. With that said, I don't think its okay to take advantage of other people. There's a happy medium.
    BecauseWhalezbro likes this.
  14. WillemHC

    WillemHC Initiate (154) Jun 21, 2013 Utah

    I feel like in only the few trades I have done I have gone either direction. I will happily send more beer $ wise than I am receiving so long as I feel that what I am receiving is worth the extra spending on my part. I don't think that developing some harsh guideline for myself based on $4$ will help in the long run. These things I feel are always circumstantial and so long as both parties feel as though they are benefiting from the trade, than it was a good trade.

    I think that strictly going $4$ is a bit ridiculous anyway. How can you say that a value beyond the price paid is unfathomable to have developed? Its not like beers are priced based purely on what it costs to produce them.. Even breweries will increase prices based on a perceived value that might involve rarity or hype anyway. Many things are likely to change in value, which is something that is inherent in any economic system. So if a beer develops a trade value that might make it worth more than what was paid for it originally, I see that as being a very natural process and not one that is unique to beer at all.
  15. bolognasuave

    bolognasuave Initiate (0) Jan 5, 2015 Illinois

    $4$ is a nice starting point i agree, however when it comes to shipping is where its gonna kill anybody. shipping a $25 bomber is gonna be a hell of a lot cheaper than shipping a $25 12 pack. so really where then does the fair come in? if thats the cost of doing "business," then you're gonna be in a failing business.
  16. RenegadeZ

    RenegadeZ Initiate (93) Dec 11, 2010 Michigan

    If you're interested in a beer offer up a trade of what you can give and if someone is willing to do it great...I never trade $4$.... The worst thing is when someone not even involved in the trade that starts stating Op paid X$ amount and wants X, not worth the trade.
    KBS and warrendietrich2001 like this.
  17. KSOZE

    KSOZE Initiate (0) Feb 10, 2015 Ohio

    I don't know - I think that's the way it goes. $4$ is a nice starting point, but I still think shipping (for me) is not a part of it. If a bomber is commanding 12 beers to keep it $4$ on beer value, than shipping IS "cost of doing business" for that particular trade.

    It happens organically (no one is trading their $20-$30 Dark Lord for that value in shelf locals). I'm sure some people are willing to "overpay" in some instances, and more power to them. But nothing wrong with trying to keep things fair in $ value of the beer, at least to start with.

    I have and always plan on throwing in a ton of extras as that's what I plan on doing, and I am a big tipper anyway. I don't want people to feel like they've "lost" a trade, so $4$ and tons of extra surprises on my part is what I aim for.
  18. bolognasuave

    bolognasuave Initiate (0) Jan 5, 2015 Illinois

    exactly. like myself, i have a bottle of Goose Island Nutulhu, and i got it for $40. you'd be out of your mind if you think i'd do an exact $4$ on that.
    FrankenMiller and WillemHC like this.
  19. RenegadeZ

    RenegadeZ Initiate (93) Dec 11, 2010 Michigan

    How much was Assassin at the brewery? Are peeps trading $4$?
    KidIcarus1945 likes this.
  20. KSOZE

    KSOZE Initiate (0) Feb 10, 2015 Ohio

    Why? It depends on your goal and the trader's goal. If you were dying for Heady Topper and someone wanted to send you 11 cans of it to keep it $4$, I don't see a problem with that on either end. If your goal is to "win" the trade based on your perceived value, that is fine and I have NO problem with that if the other trader is dying for your $40 bomber.

    Just like selling a house - your value is only what you and another party agree to, but $4$ is not ridiculous in any instance to start with.
  21. KSOZE

    KSOZE Initiate (0) Feb 10, 2015 Ohio

    They also probably won't trade for $100 of White Rajah.
  22. bolognasuave

    bolognasuave Initiate (0) Jan 5, 2015 Illinois

    i'm not disagreeing with you that $4$ isn't a bad starting point, and i agree that trade value is what people want to perceive, however when people only trade solely on $4$ there can be problems making things happen. take into account not just how much the beer costs, but how much of your day it takes going into getting said beer. like in my case going to out for KBS week, or doing black friday for when BCBS (and variants) comes out. that adds value. maybe not monetary, but still adds to it. rarity also doesn't seem to be counted in when people try to trade $4$.
    KSOZE likes this.
  23. KSOZE

    KSOZE Initiate (0) Feb 10, 2015 Ohio

    Agree to disagree. It seems like we see eye-to-eye on the crux of the issue, but the solution seems to be making it clear in your FT:ISO posting. I picked up 9 KBS and a buddy of mine did the same and took a slight amount of work. I would not put FT:ISO without stipulating ratios. The ratios, however, would most likely be $4$ assuming I'm looking for a beer of similar "rarity" (SMS, BCBS). I would not expect to pick up your bomber of Nuthulu with 7-8 bottles of KBS unless you were a KBS nut.
    bolognasuave likes this.
  24. KnowYourCraft

    KnowYourCraft Initiate (0) Jun 6, 2014 California

    It all just depends on the trade, if I'm doing a bulk trade for a rarer bottle or two I generally ask if they wouldn't throwing in some solid locals so I'm not sending $100 of beer for a $20-$30 bottle, doesn't have to be exact or even close at that point, just not to make it super lop sided.

    If I'm trading bottle for bottle I don't care if I have more $ into the trade because the trade is still fair based of what the beers are trading for. If I feel I'm short on the $ for a bottle to bottle trade I include solid extras to make up for it. I always send solid extras any way because that is the generous thing to do regardless if I have way more money into it any way.

    Whales will only trade for other whales or bulk trades, that's just the way it works. The people trading whales for bulk trades should be generous and offer solid local extras at the least.

    I'm hearing all these bulk trades happening where the bulk sender sends a ton of money in beer and the guy sending the whale just sends the one bottle... Greed is what is starting to rule the trade forums.

    I don't think it is wrong to ask for a $4$ trade by any means, the person is just wanting to make sure they are getting a similar amount invested on the other side. People just need to stop being so exact with their $4$ trades.
    KSOZE likes this.
  25. jrnyc

    jrnyc Meyvn (1,171) Mar 21, 2010 New York

    Your position on your time, gas costs and anything else to be added in to the trade is not going to fly with most people. That is just the cost of doing business.

    If someone is trading many bottles for a few bottles, a good trader will throw in some extra beer in the trade to make up for the unbalanced shipping costs, that is just common decency.

    If you are looking to make a balance sheet of all costs associated with a trade when making a trade, you are doing it wrong.
  26. KnowYourCraft

    KnowYourCraft Initiate (0) Jun 6, 2014 California

    How you got the beer or what you had to do to get the beer is and should always be irrelevant to the cost. This is why $4$ deals are getting out of hand. What you paid for the beer at the store is the $ invested period. Travel cost, time, and what ever else should never add up to $4$ in a trade.
    skinsfan, Jaycase, cl3 and 4 others like this.
  27. blassor

    blassor Aspirant (262) Sep 2, 2010 New Jersey

    why even read this thread then?
    skinsfan, Abbbp, mgr78704 and 4 others like this.
  28. KnowYourCraft

    KnowYourCraft Initiate (0) Jun 6, 2014 California

    Shipping cost should never be looked at in $4$ either. That is the cost you are taking to make the trade happen.

    $4$ should only be looked at as what either person trading spent on beer and beer alone. Forget everything else.
    KSOZE likes this.
  29. Wiscobrew

    Wiscobrew Initiate (0) Feb 19, 2011 Nevada

    I trade quite often bombers/750s on my end for cases of shelfish beers like Central Waters.
    $4$ always with me throwing in an extra agreed upon bottle and me shipping first with a 24 bottle shipper for them to return.
  30. warrendietrich2001

    warrendietrich2001 Crusader (717) Feb 13, 2013 Nevada

    I am learning that you really need to have an item that someone wants and you really need to know what you want back in return. Than you don't spend so much time back in forth and frustrated that you can not work something out. I had a bottle of Rare Barrel Ensorcelled that I wanted to trade but had no idea on what kind of bottle I could get in return and an offer of a solid 18th street brewery beer did not seem like enough and asking for two bottles made it seem as I were greedy. But if somebody offered me a Huna for it I would be jumping up and down with delight despite the dollar amount would not match up. In other cases I have traded Pliny just for someones local IPAs and let them pick what they wanted to send as I only was looking to try new things and we traded 3 bottles for 3 bottles. I guess the only thing that works is if both parties are happy with the trade whether its $4$ of both sides end up with beer that want and price is not part of the equation.
  31. InsuranceGuy

    InsuranceGuy Initiate (0) Nov 9, 2011 Delaware

    It's really about setting expectations. I have found that the best way to approach a trade is have a list of what you are ISO. That way, you don't have to go through the process of someone just offering whatever they want with no consideration for what you expect to receive. If you desire a Huna or other similar brews for your RBE, then starting with that list sets the expectations for your potential trade partner. They may not have anything on your ISO list, but they may have similar brews you had never even thought of that satisfy your wants.
    KSOZE and warrendietrich2001 like this.
  32. WillemHC

    WillemHC Initiate (154) Jun 21, 2013 Utah

    Ill say I don't think it's ridiculous to start with but it's ridiculous to use as a primary benchmark because a trade forum is essentially a market where "value" is determined by much more than an initial price. At any given time the value of a good can fluctuate, and even more specific a value can fluctuate when price does not. For example, lets say BCBS costs $7 for a 12oz bottle one year. A year later that beer still has the same monetary worth, but because it is no longer available on shelves and has been cellared for a year, it arguably has more value. This beer should no longer be traded $4$ unless it is going for a beer that was similarly hard to find, is no longer available, and was aged for the same amount of time. So what I think of when I consider this is that many people on the forum have a good perception of what value is. This is the exact reason people often post in others threads saying something like "this will or won't get done" without saying that it won't get done because of monetary value, but because we have developed a new type of value that might be called trade value. $4$ works only in special circumstances, but more often than not a more complex version of "value" has been generated based on the emergence of new social relations via a beer trade forum.
  33. KSOZE

    KSOZE Initiate (0) Feb 10, 2015 Ohio

    I hear what you are saying and I agree with you. Perhaps I'm overlooking things, but there is a risk in your example that that BCBS was not aged properly. Maybe someone had it in the garage and experienced wild temperature changes. Maybe purely out of ignorance on the trader. Is that BCBS worth as much as BCBS that was cellared in a humidity controlled room at 55 degrees?

    On the other side, is a 2015 KBS for a 2014 BCBS ridiculous because the 2014 has more perceived value? The forum may dictate that 2014 BCBS aged properly is better, but perhaps the trader prefers fresh KBS to aged BCBS and wasn't able to get their hands on that beer. That is where the gray lines are, and why, IMO $4$ is never ridiculous assuming general common sense is used. In my town, KBS was marked 10% higher this year than last year. Does the 10% make up for the $4$ in perceived cellaring value? Probably up to the traders.

    I think it comes down to making sure FT:ISO is on point rather than "FT: 2014 BCBS ISO: GOOD STOUTS" and then getting annoyed when people make an offer not up to your perceived snuff.
  34. markgugs

    markgugs Initiate (0) Dec 20, 2006 New Jersey

    I will never understand why this is so confusing to so many traders.

    Instead of starting with $4$, ask yourself if the beers being discussed are AT OR NEAR THE SAME "LEVEL." Meaning, bottle count/availability/rarity/etc. If they are, then $4$ is pretty much the way to go. If they're not, then you're gonna have to either way overpay or trade for different beer.

    Someone tongue-in-cheek asked above if "Assassin trades for $30 worth of beer." If it's $30 of equally in demand/limited beer, the answer is yes. If it's $30 worth of shelf IPAs, the answer is no. As an example.
  35. Dumsboa09

    Dumsboa09 Initiate (0) Dec 21, 2011 Pennsylvania

    Not sure if this has been said but I leave shipping out of it. I'm new to the trade scene and I'm only looking for both parties to be happy with the trade. That said, I've had a 20 pound package and a 7 pound package ship for literally a dollars difference. That's exactly why I leave shipping off the table. Just try and share the cool beer we have access to.
  36. markgugs

    markgugs Initiate (0) Dec 20, 2006 New Jersey

    oh yeah, including s/h costs = LOL. someone else put it best, the "cost of doing business."

    filed under the same inane comments like "I had to drive this far," or "I waited in a long line," or "stood in the freezing cold," etc.

    StonedRaider, jrnyc, skinsfan and 3 others like this.
  37. montman

    montman Devotee (434) Mar 10, 2009 Virginia

    I've never even taking shipping into consideration for the beers trades "value" I feel like if people are factoring in shipping, gas, time, etc. nit picking for additional dollars in the trade, then perhaps trading is just not for you (implying one in particular).
    This is supposed to be fun....
    NorCalAussie, maximum12 and jrnyc like this.
  38. Dumsboa09

    Dumsboa09 Initiate (0) Dec 21, 2011 Pennsylvania

    Totally agree^^
  39. DawgPhan

    DawgPhan Initiate (0) Mar 23, 2012 Georgia

    I only consider shipping costs when the weight is going to be lopsided. If I am shipping 1-2 beers and the other guy is shipping a 50pound box, I make sure to up the extras. I also try and stick with $4$, but I also mainly trade with regular partners.
    jrnyc likes this.
  40. DawgPhan

    DawgPhan Initiate (0) Mar 23, 2012 Georgia

    But saying that the effort you took in getting the beer should be factored in is silly. The other guy had to go get the beer he is trading as well.
    ATA1K and jrnyc like this.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.