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Discussion in 'Great Lakes' started by averagejake872, May 1, 2012.
Pretty legit post by FFF.
Agree with them about bottle sales. There's really no way to stop people from selling the actual beer on the secondary market. I'm fine with that. It's a commodity. You own it, you can do what you want with it.
However, I absolutely DO NOT agree with them about ticket sales.
I don't buy this. People have come up with solutions hundreds of times in this forum. You can make tickets non-transferable. It's not easy with 6,000 people, but it's certainly doable if the will is there. I mean, it's up to them to determine what they consider practical, but I'd argue there are ways to do it that they've chosen not to do, not all of which would place the burden entirely on them.
There does seem to be a higher than average number of Dark Lords for sale on eBay right now.
Raising the price from $15 would cut down some of the black market stuff.
Then tickets/bottles would just sell for $15 more on eBay.
Actually I think the reverse would happen and doing that would cut down the actual people that want it for consumption. Ok, so say they raised the price to $30 a ticket. Ebay guy who is flipping bottles of regular dark Lord for $100 each X4 = $400 - $30 for the ticket - $60 for said bottles = $310 profit. Than if he happens to win the scratch off he is flipping those for $300+ which make his profits skyrocket...And that's not even including however many mules he's bringing. But even alone, at least a $310 profit in like 2 hours is pretty decent...more than enough that an extra $15 per ticket wouldn't scare him off. To cut into ebay guys profits 3 floyds would have to charge like $100 a ticket with a 1 bottle limit. I definitely hope that doesn't happen.
Then average Joe guy like you and me are now paying $30 just for a ticket to buy a $15 beer or possibly a $50 beer if we win the scratch off. Doesn't sound too appealing to me.
My belief is that less real fans like us would buy the tickets and all that would be is more for the mules that the ebay flippers bring.
Many people don't trade?
I was tempted to purchase many times in the past, but $$$ didn't let me.
Oh no no no... many people won't post an ISO because they do not trade beers.
Edit: I have been lucky enough to get it for the past 3 years through trading partners myself, so yay for trading Dark Lords.
I've been trying to trade for DL, but I've only seen a handful of people who have it FT, so I'm guessing people are still holding on to theirs or putting them on the 'bay.
I think he meant the other way around. As in people who are buying them might not be traders.
EDIT: As he clarified above. Not quick enough today!
Faster than you'll ever live to be
I know, wrong movie.
Not gonna lie, when I was a young buck in this craft beer game (meaning about a year ago) I was very tempted to shell out big money for Dark Lord. I, like many, wanted this "whale" at almost any cost.
I realize now that it's not terribly hard to get your hands on the stuff.
I think it's a lot of people who hear about it. $50/Dark Lord (sounds cool, read a story about it) or $30/Bitches Brew (saw the TV show) shipped to your door sounds pretty sweet when you're used to not being able to afford top-notch wines.
A few are probably beer geek eBayers in it for the long haul.
In addition to what others said, I will add:
The biggest deterrent for me was the cost. When someone with 200+ ratings is selling, I wouldn't be too worried about other things.
Imagine if I was rich, just filthy rich. So rich that you couldn't even think I way I would think. Dropping 100 on a soda rich, I guess (you can see my rich thoughts are severely limited)
Would I really care if someone marked it up to $50 and out of the markup they are going to pay ebay, their tickets, gas whatever?
Edit: Will also add this --- If I were that rich, would I have any inclination to go to store, buy bubble wrap, pack the shit for trades etc. if I could just buy beers online for an amount insignificant (to me).
i bought a 2007 dark lord for $50 a couple of years ago. was easier than trading for it.
Yup, I can very well see the cost of everything exceeding 200 dollars.
It doesn't make sense that people spend $50 on regular DL. It makes sense that it trades for rare-ish things, and it makes sense that as it ages, if you're trading with someone who you know is legit, it trades for rarer-ish things. The variants are obviously worth more.
It's almost like it's a responsibility to trade away DL to good folks from sites like this, rather than leaving extra potential customers on those eBay sales.
But IMO, this beer is way sweet right now, and I wouldn't even recommend trading for it unless you're going to cellar it for a while. If you want to open some, trade for a 9 or a 10.
Yeah basically. People just getting into craft beer hear about it and want to get their hands on it, and buying it is easier and less intimidating than trading.
For the record, I "liked this" because of the limited "rich thoughts" and not for advocacy of selling the beer.
People shouldn't be intimidated by beer.
Our decision not to enact some of those measures on ticket sales has to do with the fact that we're doing everything in our power to streamline the process of getting on the property and keep ticket costs reasonable. If you really want us to go with a will call list where we have to check everyone's ID, blood type and retina scan, plus pay Ticketmaster convenience fees, we can but people will still be in line when the last band goes off the stage and Dark Lord sales are over. We do not take these decisions lightly. I have received tons of suggestions as to how we can do the ticket sales better. Some are being considered, some are impractical.
Before I started trading/being on BA, I never knew that an underground trade market even existed. Many times I would troll around the 'bay and see prices hoping to one day get to try some of the elusive "rockstar" beers.
Kinda sucks when someone, like myself (who would keep the beers and drink / share them and NOT trade or sell them), tried to buy online and was shut-out for people wanting to flip and make a profit.
I think requiring the purchaser to show ID that matches the name on the tickets when showing up for the event would HELP lessen the scalping.
You could pay me with a 4-pack of Dark Lord to check ID's for 1 or 2 sessions!
Not intimidated by beer, but by trading. Beer noobs don't know anything about trade value, and so just assume they would NEVER be able to trade anything for something "rare" like Dark Lord. Or, they low ball the hell out of it because they don't know any better.
Just to clarify, I'm totally against selling things Dark Lord on eBay. I'm just giving some opinions about the mentality of people who buy beer on ebay.
FFF brews 10 bottles per year of 22% abv super beer, gives it an apocalyptic name, has a world's fair on the day of it's release, and then is upset about grey market activity.
If there were no buyers for black market tickets and/or bottles, the sellers would go away.
Don't fucking buy it.
wouldn't one way to control this would be to make more of it? If I could make a product that had people lining up like they do and then being able to re-sell it later that day for 5x the price. I would increase my output and sell it @ liquor stores for at least the month of April like they do with the the seasonals. Their cult status may take a hit, which I think is the point of all this.
Also I noticed this year there were many more bottles on ebay w/ pics before the event. Could their own employees be the first to market?
I bought two bottles on ebay. Ran the numbers and paying $50/bottle is actually a good deal.
What are my options?
1. Buy bottles for $50 each on ebay.
2. Find someone to trade with. Trade a bottle of Dark Lord for a bottle of Surly Darkness. I paid $20 for the Darkness. Of course everyone wants MORE that just that. So you'll have to figure another $20 (or more) worth of extras. Now you're up to $40 for a bottle. Figure $5-10 for packing materials (box, bubble wrap, peanuts). Then $20 to ship. Now you're up to close to $70. Oh, don't forget about all the time to organize a trade and packing everything.
Ya, $50 a bottle doesn't sound too bad....
Tried getting Dark Lord tickets but got nothing online the day of the sale. Saw locals selling tickets on ebay after 3 Floyds sold them at the brewery that Saturday. After seeing the high price of the tickets, I knew it would be better to just buy the beer.
For the $200+ people were paying for tickets, that buys me 4 bottles right now.....
Plenty of people in Chi have DLs. Trade 2 x Darkness for 2 x DL; pay ~10 in shipping and ~5 for materials.
Bottle cost would be more like 25 to you, considering the other party might throw in Alpha King to make up $4$.
There's nothing wrong in proposing no extras if you want to keep the costs low.
Edit: What about ebay shipping?
I think that DLD day has been almost perfect the last two years. The only way it could of been better is if I won a scratch off. 0-2 in that department. Anytime there is a high demand for a limited product there is going to be a "black market" for that product. The percentage of bottles and tickets that end up on the market is very low. I feel the steps they are currently using are fine. It will take a lot more effort to produce very little more in reward. In my opinion, I don't see it being a productive use of their time. I would rather they spent more time opening that rumored Chicago location and making more great beer.
I just found it curious.
It's also odd that we are somewhat pining for the "good ol' dark lord days" before it got big and approaching being unobtainable. Can't we just go back to the rediculous lines, lack of port-o-lets, and risk running out. I think it would be better than dealing with the black market, frat boys, and thievery.
All of this. If something is limited, it will find its way to eBay. It's an unfortunate side effect of the popularity of craft beer.
Having a good base understanding in economics and supply and demand is key here. The Market price for a dld ticket is much higher than what the brewery sells it for I think everyone can agree on that. People are willing to pay alot more for tickets than what they charge. Because of this there is a shortage of tickets. By raising the price it will alow more of the money that is filltered through the "black market" to go directly to the brewery and in turn detur any scalpers/mules. I also would like to point out that the whole even takes alot longer than 2 hours. I was in group B and waited in line just for my darklord for 4 hours. and that did not include the hour and a half to just get in the gates. I think group A's alotment went by alot faster but then they had to get there earlyer and wait in line earlyer so it's more like a minimum of 4 hours if you got group A and did everything right.
First off, let's do the math. There were approx. 6000 tickets sold. Bottle allotment was 4ea. Now, if every ticket holder is allowed four bottles, that's 24,000 total bottles. I understand what you're saying, but 10 is a far too low sarcastic number.
Employees selling bottles, i don't think so. Secondly, i'm sure they have enough struggle trying to make enough brew to hold their event, let alone try and distribute it. Also, they're in business to make money. Isn't that the point of a business? At a "cash only" event open to 6000+ people, all ready and willing to pay $15 x 4 plus however many get to "win" the chance to pay in another $50.... I think we get the idea. Also, don't forget the -ba variants, plus i'm sure they tuck some away that don't get sold.
Anywho.... When you're the #1 rated craft brewer in, i believe, the world for 5 years running, i think you get to do whatever you want. Don't like it, don't buy it. But when you're company is crushing the beer market without one drop of advertisement other than word of mouth, you must be doing something right. And when you get an entire county, and i'm sure people around the world, all vying for 6000 pieces of paper, some are bound to lose out. It sucks, but them's the breaks...
not totally flawed..when you factor in travel costs, hotels, meals...some are over or near $50 a bottle. I know I am. I enjoy the experience that goes along with it, but from a purely economical decision I would be better off paying up to $50 a bottle.
Regardless, totally respect for FFF for putting out this message. Its the responsible thing to do.
i gotta say, reading a primer on economics from " the darkest lord of the mall " tickles me.
If you understood what I was saying then I think 10 worked just fine
I am not saying that you wouldn't have spent ~200 or more for DLD. But good luck trying to trade DL at a 50 dollar value.