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Three Floyds: "Regarding Second Market Dark Lord Sales"

Discussion in 'Great Lakes' started by averagejake872, May 1, 2012.

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  1. paslaugh

    paslaugh Feb 17, 2012 Illinois

    Nice. Funny that this gem comes in the post directly after bitching about FFF's handling of the BA taps in the brew-pub on DLD. A point I actually agree with you on, btw.
  2. jegross2

    jegross2 Jan 3, 2010 Illinois
    Beer Trader

    Touche. I see the meta-relationship and hypocrisy. But i'm not telling FFF what to do and whining about their right to do something else. I'm merely offering fervent suggestions. Different from ebay butthurt.
  3. MasterSki

    MasterSki Dec 25, 2006 Ontario (Canada)
    Site Editor Subscriber Beer Trader

    Do you have any idea how expensive fresh cognac barrels are? Virtually every cognac barrel-aged beer has retail pricing close to or higher than $50/750ml.

    I think a lot of people are forgetting that 3 Floyds doesn't have a very extensive barrel program. The majority of their space is dedicated to pumping out Zombie Dust and Gumballhead in sufficient quantities to supply market demands. All of the barrel-aged beers are hand-filled, and they don't benefit from any of the economics of scale that someone like Goose Island does.

    Could they sell the beers a bit cheaper and still make a profit? Sure. However, they are in the business of making money. Besides, if they priced them at $30 you'll just end up with more profiteers buying and reselling as their margin will be that much higher - better that 3 Floyds reinvests the extra $20 into expanding their brewery than line the pockets of scalpers and speculators.
  4. jegross2

    jegross2 Jan 3, 2010 Illinois
    Beer Trader

  5. rt1976

    rt1976 Apr 29, 2009 Indiana

    I thought distillers just got rid of them because they couldn't use them twice. Why would they be so expensive if they are basically garbage?
  6. rt1976

    rt1976 Apr 29, 2009 Indiana

    I thought the brewers utilized the used (throw away) barrels. Not true?
  7. Blanco

    Blanco Oct 11, 2008 Pennsylvania
    Beer Trader

    This is a stupid line of reasoning that you should end now. I pay my taxes. Oh and I'm "American" as well as "Hispanic."
    jegross2 likes this.
  8. foobula

    foobula Dec 14, 2009 Illinois

    That's my understanding. I deleted my earlier post because I misunderstood what you were saying.

    Perhaps they're expensive because they can be used for other purposes than just brewing? They're oak barrels, right? Maybe that's a pricey wood with a high resale value?
  9. SpottedZombie

    SpottedZombie Feb 7, 2012 Illinois

    One man's garbage...
  10. mtrog313

    mtrog313 Feb 28, 2012 Michigan
    Beer Trader

    53 gallon barrels go for around $100-300 online. 3 Floyds may be buying higher quality barrels but I can't imagine it being more than 2-3x more expensive. They also probably get a discounted rate by buying in bulk.

    One gallon is equal to around 5 - 750ml bottles. So one barrel could produce upwards of 250-265 bottles.

    Barrel cost is not a legit justification for their price points.

    Which ones would those be?
  11. SpottedZombie

    SpottedZombie Feb 7, 2012 Illinois

    Beer Geek Breakfast cognac off the top of my head, and it's very well distributed.
  12. mtrog313

    mtrog313 Feb 28, 2012 Michigan
    Beer Trader

    There's one, but the base beer for that is more expensive going for $15-18 for a 500ml, and even at $15 for a 250ml it still comes out $5 cheaper. Plus Mikkeller isn't the best example to use in debate about over priced beer

    Also the Black Hole cognac was $15 for 375ml

    Three Floyds can charge whatever they want, especially if people will line up to pay it. Just don't pretend any of it has to do with an attempt to be good to customers.
  13. MasterSki

    MasterSki Dec 25, 2006 Ontario (Canada)
    Site Editor Subscriber Beer Trader

    Cognac barrels are re-used - as such there is a very limited supply and they are highly coveted by other distillers, vineyards, breweries, etc. They are not like bourbon barrels which can only be used once for bourbon, then must be discarded. They are very likely 2-3x more expensive than bourbon barrels, and I hardly think purchasing 3-4 barrels would qualify for any sort of bulk discount. There were only ~1,200 bottles of both cognac variants.

    Pretty much every cognac barrel-aged beer available is made in Europe, because it's expensive to bring over the barrels quickly enough so that they don't dry out. Here's a sampling of prices.
    Beer Geek Brunch Weasel was $15 for 250ml
    Mooi & Machtig was $10 for 180ml
    Little Korkny Cognac was $20 for 375ml
    Konjaks! Stormakstporter is ~$50 for 250ml!

    In any case I made no argument that the pricing was favorable for customers, I merely pointed out that a complaint last year was that there were too few 'winners' of barrel-aged selections. They listened, made more, and had some offerings for sale that didn't rely on the Golden Ticket (BA Alpha Klaus et al). That being said, I don't think what they're charging is terribly out of line with current market pricing. If you don't like the cost of cognac barrel-aged beers, then don't buy them - there's plenty of other stuff out there.

    EDIT: You can buy a spent cognac barrel for $329, plus whatever it costs to ship a 200lb barrel across the Atlantic in a timely fashion.
    chanokokoro and MarkIntihar like this.
  14. TapeDeck

    TapeDeck Mar 31, 2011 Illinois

    YES. It IS a matter of "pleasing customers."
    How do I know?
    The people who got "winning tickets" were thrilled.
    The people who did not were bummed.

    An object is worth what someone will pay for it.
    People are happy to pay $50 for a limited bottle of barrel aged Dark Lord.
    Anyone's sentiments of "cash grab" etc are entirely irrelevant.
    You're not obligated to buy. If it costs too much, then pass. If the overall sentiment agrees, the price will come down.

    But the masses in general DO NOT agree.
    People handed over $50 with a smile.
    And honestly, that invalidates any argument against it.
    cadizkyguy and mm2112 like this.
  15. Lansman

    Lansman Mar 19, 2011 Missouri
    Beer Trader

    With the understanding that DLD just happened, and interest in this particular area of the US is at the yearly high, I thought it would be interesting to mention that as of this post, of the 2,471 replies on the front page of the Great Lakes BA forum, there are 1,963 replies (79%) related to Three Floyds and/or DLD-related threads.

    With that kind of interest and focus, they must be doing something right.
    MarkIntihar likes this.
  16. mm2112

    mm2112 Jun 16, 2010 Illinois
    Beer Trader

    as I read these threads sometimes I wonder if some BA's really love beer or just really love complaining.
    Gritch likes this.
  17. jegross2

    jegross2 Jan 3, 2010 Illinois
    Beer Trader

    Can't it be both?
    Vav and paslaugh like this.
  18. MasterSki

    MasterSki Dec 25, 2006 Ontario (Canada)
    Site Editor Subscriber Beer Trader

    I like complaining about the excessive complaining in the forums. I'm a meta sort of guy.
    angertoast, mm2112, Vav and 1 other person like this.
  19. jegross2

    jegross2 Jan 3, 2010 Illinois
    Beer Trader

    Grass is always greener
  20. theburden

    theburden Dec 17, 2002 Indiana

  21. TMoney2591

    TMoney2591 Apr 21, 2009 Illinois

    Our engineers couldn't figure out how to make our dining halls more efficient for the dinnertime rush (sad, but true). We do, however, excel at the Rube-Goldberg competition...
    MarkIntihar likes this.
  22. MarkIntihar

    MarkIntihar Mar 17, 2010 Michigan

    Should've gone with a Rose engineer ;)
  23. theburden

    theburden Dec 17, 2002 Indiana

    So post after post about ebay sales, which the blog post didn't even mention, and no replies about a bar listing bottles on their menu at $55 a pop.
  24. foobula

    foobula Dec 14, 2009 Illinois

    Well, at least FFF is on the case.

    @3floyds: @cashlion can you tell us where?

    7:22 PM - 2 May 12 via Twitter for Android
  25. MaxSpang

    MaxSpang Jan 28, 2011 Ohio

    I wouldn't mind seeing FFF publicly out the bar that is selling Dark Lord bottles.
  26. rt1976

    rt1976 Apr 29, 2009 Indiana

    Does alcohol sold in an Indiana or Illinois bar need to be purchased through a distributor?
  27. MasterSki

    MasterSki Dec 25, 2006 Ontario (Canada)
    Site Editor Subscriber Beer Trader

    Yes. The only place it would be legal to resell Dark Lord in the US is in Washington DC. I wouldn't be surprised if it shows up on Churchkey's menu at some point.
  28. rt1976

    rt1976 Apr 29, 2009 Indiana

    For some reason I thought they could buy it direct, just not through a liquor store. I thought I've seen local Indy breweries offloading trucks at local restaurants.
  29. danimalarkey

    danimalarkey Mar 3, 2008 Illinois

    Dark Lord, yes -- but in Illinois, at least, there is the small brewery/self-distribution example. Like Pipeworks -- they are allowed to sell their beer direct to stores (and I'm assuming bars, down the road). Generally, laws are going to vary (widely) by state.
  30. cpinto6

    cpinto6 Feb 25, 2010 Georgia

    Are you serious? What kinda school is Purdue? Do they not teach anything? An IE from a top 10 engineering school should be able to do something like that easily...even if its the last one of the top 10 list. I fear to think of how useless an IE from anything below a top 10 school is if Purdue ones can't get their shit together.
  31. cpinto6

    cpinto6 Feb 25, 2010 Georgia

    Its not a stupid line of reasoning...its a generalization, which I already stated. You are American...exactly. I'm talking about Hispanics that grew up in their respective Latin American Countries.
  32. cpinto6

    cpinto6 Feb 25, 2010 Georgia

    Another example finally popped into my head randomly...night clubs. I went to one in Ibiza called privilege that can fit around 10,000 people. They checked that many IDs between like 1 and 3am.
  33. MasterSki

    MasterSki Dec 25, 2006 Ontario (Canada)
    Site Editor Subscriber Beer Trader

    Illinois establishments can't sell beer from out-of-state without a distributor.

    In any case, this isn't "self-distributing". The bar/store would still need an invoice from 3 Floyds showing the transaction and that they paid the appropriate excise taxes and such. Obviously this wouldn't be the case with Dark Lord.
  34. cpinto6

    cpinto6 Feb 25, 2010 Georgia

    It's a bar...there's always an inherent markup. They usually make somewhere between 100% and 300% if not more on alcohol. Its less than eBay and its at a freaking bar, I don't see why there should be any outrage about the price. About being DL which isn't supposed to be distributed so bars shouldn't be able to sell it sure, but the 55 a pop is irrelevant.
  35. rt1976

    rt1976 Apr 29, 2009 Indiana

    I guess my question is. If a bar owner purchased the DL @ DLD is it legal to sell in the establishment?

    I'm guessing the bar is in IL or IN but it has not been confirmed.
  36. cpinto6

    cpinto6 Feb 25, 2010 Georgia

    Yea, they check that you look like the picture and check what date you were born. Takes about as much time as matching the name on the ticket to the name on the ID...who said anything about a list? That's idiotic...that would definitely take forever and be counter productive.
  37. rt1976

    rt1976 Apr 29, 2009 Indiana

    $55 a pop is in line with the mark up for other craft beer (ie alpha king @ $6 a bottle)
  38. cpinto6

    cpinto6 Feb 25, 2010 Georgia

    It's not...if you reported it to the Liquor Board of that state and they gave a shit they could get them in real trouble. That is unless its something like Darkness that gets distributed too so the label has been approved by the state and therefore is completely legal. I know DL doesn't get distributed now but if it did before and the label got approved and it hasn't changed, then I can see it not being illegal.
  39. drabmuh

    drabmuh Feb 7, 2004 Maryland

    There are a few bottles on the vintage shelf of beers already but it is not exactly clear how to order from that list. Lots of beers on the shelf that aren't on the menu. Mildly annoying.
  40. cpinto6

    cpinto6 Feb 25, 2010 Georgia

    Yep, I think he was just thinking damn that's a high price because its a big number for sure but its right in line with the markups for other beers. Its always more expensive to drink at a pub than at home unless you're buying on eBay.
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