Toppling Goliath collaboration with Binny's Beverage Depot

Certainly no Bourbon distiller would re use any barrel for his distillate (and expect to get away with it for long if selling as if it were really Bourbon).

 

Same here, but the Scots have no law that says the barrel must be new and can not be reused as do the Bourbon distillers. That Glenmorangie we enjoyed is both the product of many different barrels being blended as well as two different agings. The skills of the Blender can often be more important than the barrels themselves.

 

I don't think wet means what you think it means. And sanitation is necessary in most if not all cases afaik. We need an actual cellarman in here.

 

Does distillers like Glenmorangie actually blend barrels? I supposed from the barrel water added to a specific proof but I wasn’t aware they blend the whiskey.

 

The a single batch of distillate fills many barrels. In the barrels which are a bit porous aging includes some escape of molecules. It’s called the “Angels share.” The aged stuff comes out with less liquid than went in and also higher proof than it went in, Barrels in different parts of the warehouse age in slightly different ways. To get a desired flavor consistency from bottle to bottle the Blender chooses which barrels to pour together to get a good outcome for bottling. Water is added at some point to reduce the ABV to match the label used for selling.

 

That very well may be true. I definitely lead ignorance here, as any knowledge I have has simply been garnered from various posts over the years, and not me specifically doing any digging on the matter.

I thought wet meant: “freshly dumped,” with not every last drop completely emptied out. Whereas, normally they would work to squeeze every last drop from the barrel.

Is this not the case?

I also did not know that they had to be cleaned. Is this always true?

 

From reading and direct conversation with folks at one particular distillery located near Lexington KY, and various tours/visits to other distilleries both here and in Scotland, the picture I have formed is this:

As long as the barrels remain wet from the remainder of the whiskey in the barrels (including that in the pores) there is sanitation. One of the folks I chatted with told me that a while back they used to sell barrels to frat boys. That barrel would have, say a gallon of water, poured in the barrel which was the re-bunged and the rolled around the law, tipped over and over, etc. Eventually the frat boys would pull the bung, leave the barrel alone for a while is it drained. They then had enough booze for a party.

As long as the brewers receive the barrels wet inside, say if they have been bunged and complely shrink wrapped the barresl can be simply used with out a lot of risk of infection. If the barrel goes dry then there is a problem.

The Scots, however typical buy the barrels, some under long term contract, and they are shipped to Scotland. Often, perhaps usually, before they are put to use, they will be cleaned and then re-charred. The possible damaged barrels will be re-built by coopers if possible and then re-charred for use in aging the malt whisky. To re-use a malt whisky barrel it is recoopered if necessary and then re-charred. I've also heard/read that least one former burbon barrel survived about 100 years of re-use. (It is also my understanding, perhaps wrong, that the only barrels simply filled with malt whisky are still wet, e.g., sherry barrels from the other side of the Channel, etc.)

Note: Corrections, improvements, additional information welcomed.

 

From what I've heard, to have liquid spirit added to your beer, even in this way as a part of barrel aging, (at least to admit to it), is illegal.

 

If it is illegal to put the beer into wet barrels, the author of this bit on prepping your barrels for aging beer hasn't heard that yet:

https://beerandbrewing.com/prepping-used-barrels-for-aging-beer/

 

It saying that you are wrong, but it does not make sense to me why having very small amounts of spirits left in the barrel would be frowned upon. I’m not talking a ton, I am just saying enough that the barrel stays “wet.”

I am far too exhausted today to look into this, but maybe tomorrow.

@Veliksta1 do you by chance have anything to add?

 

Like define wet. I’m sure they’re drained of liquid volume, who wants to leave money in the barrel. I’m assuming wet vs dry refers to age since drainage of some type. For whiskey I’d guess it’s immaterial, but that whiskey is going to be aged for 10-12 years so it’s not all that pertinent. But for beer it’s much different because of the contact age, you have to squeeze all the flavor out of that barrel in 6-9- 12 months. So perhaps younger might apply here, a young barrel.

 

At the distillery they empty the barrel. They pour and move on without competely draining every last drop. Inside the barrel there is some wetness from any remaining liquid that didn't pour but can be drained. That is a wet barrel. In additon the pores of the wood are filled with Bourbon that can evetually seep out. The distileries don't bother with complete drain because it is more costly to in time, labor, etc. than just leaving some Bourbon in the barrel. Remember the frat boys trick.

Brewers often use any mix of both young and mature barrels, the ages can vary. Some brewers may make a special offering from say only 12 year old barrels from a particular whisky. (If they can buy just those from a middleman who handles used barrels. Those barrels that are not already under contract to be sold to a particular buyer.) There will be flavors regardless of age. The difference is in the age of the whisky that remains after the pour.

Tying back to barrel aging of beer. Some brewers use whatever they can get and mix it all up. Others can arrange to get some specific barrel. The major constant is increasing prices as demand goes up. Thus there's a certain amount of up-front costs just to acquire barrels. This impacts the prices we pay.

 

That what TTB Ruling 2015-1 which, among other things, ruled that
"aging beer in barrels that were previously used in the production or storage of wine or distilled spirits, do not require the filing of a formula" states:

When proprietors of distilled spirits plants and bonded wine cellars sell used barrels, woodchips, or parts of a barrel to brewers or to the general public, they are obligated under the IRC to ensure that they are not thereby removing nontaxpaid wine or spirits from their premises. Accordingly, the barrels should be completely empty and the barrels, woodchips, and parts of the barrel should not contain any discernible quantity of distilled spirits or wine. TTB reminds brewers that TTB regulations do not authorize a brewer to use wine or distilled spirits in the production of beer. See 27 CFR 7.11 and 25.15. Brewers must ensure that the use of barrels, woodchips, and part of barrels that were previously used in the production or storage of wine or distilled spirits will not add any discernible quantity of wine or distilled spirits to the beer.

 

@Sabtos

I'd argue that "any discernible" amount is open to some interpretation, but I think the sentiment is that you shouldn't be able to open it, turn it, and pour out a glass, or hear it sloshing. I don't think this means that it has to be dry as dry can be. Just "empty." Some small amount of liquid (and thereby "wet") may remain.

Do you understand this differently?

 

Really, I'm not a cellarman and not a single one of us in this thread appear to be either so it's just a circle jerk of outsider opinions and secondhand quotations at this point.

I'm not going to pretend like I know from experience, just from those I've spoken to in the industry. Unless you get someone in this thread willing to speak to their process (especially someone working with large volume), the conversation is at a dead end.

 

I don't think anyone thought you were pretending to know from experience. Some of the rest of us also have said we only know something from reading and/or having spoken to the pros. E.g., Being in a barrel warehouse as the manager describes and explains what goes on and why, truely isn't the same as doing it one's self for a living.

But I do think there is some possible value in whittling away at what can't be correct so as to get to within or at least nearer the right ball park. Then when we do find a pro with direct experience we may be better able understand and learn from her/his experience.

 

So this would seem that barrel aged beers should be illegal? If you can taste the spirit that is a discernible quantity.

 

You'd think, but...

Hey, lots of TTB and state alcoholic beverage regulations don't make a lot of sense - outdated, vague and/or confusing. Sometimes it's to the brewers' advantage? Just not very often.

You figure, the TTB can check the "empty" barrels both at the distillery/winery before shipping and at the brewery after receipt, and so far we haven't heard about problems.

 

Seems that “within the limits of tolerance allowed for government work” might just apply here.