Treehouse House yeast character

Discussion in 'Homebrewing' started by skimguy, Jan 10, 2017.

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  1. skimguy

    skimguy Initiate (74) Nov 12, 2015 Pennsylvania
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    Treehouses IPAs have a very distinct and consistent yeast expression. It is sort of a melony/bubblegummy taste. Anyone who has had multiple treehouse ipas knows what I'm talking about. Which yeast strain would lend these sorts of flavors?
     
  2. zizouandyuki

    zizouandyuki Aspirant (247) Nov 26, 2015 Texas

    In the past two weeks, I've had the following: Doublegänger, Doppelgänger, Julius, Green, Alter Ego, Haze, Sap, Super Sap.

    I'm convinced that its 1318 or something very similar to it. I've been using 1318 on my last 10 brews, and believe I can confidently identify its characteristics in these beers.
     
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  3. GetMeAnIPA

    GetMeAnIPA Defender (613) Mar 28, 2009 California

    I was always convinced that it was 1318 as well, however, I never get bubblegum using 1318.

    i use 1318 for my NE IPAs and they come out really good and would say "juicy", however I never get that bubblegum flavor.
     
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  4. JohnConnorforealthistime

    JohnConnorforealthistime Initiate (60) Mar 10, 2016 Wisconsin

    I'm curious what temps you guys ferment 1318? I've tried a handful of temp ranges and I must say, I really like the upper end on that yeast. It's too clean for me in the mid 60's where I read bloggers using it at.
     
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  5. zizouandyuki

    zizouandyuki Aspirant (247) Nov 26, 2015 Texas

    I've only fermented around 65-66*F with a 2-day rise to 68-69*F after it's reached terminal gravity.

    I may have to try warmer temperatures for this next batch. How warm are you fermenting?
     
  6. TriggerFingers

    TriggerFingers Disciple (343) Apr 29, 2012 California

    Just had Sap last week and 1318 came to mind. That yeast has a slight tartness/tang to it that was evident in that beer.

    I didn't detect a melody/bubblegum taste...not in regard to an off flavor. What did strike me was the mild flavor (maybe candy like?--but not sweetness) which I attributed to the grist/malt used.
     
  7. zizouandyuki

    zizouandyuki Aspirant (247) Nov 26, 2015 Texas

    I'm a big believer that a lot of the character in these beers is from the malt.

    I've been working on my own NEIPA for a while, and I wanted to see how it compares to Tree House. I did a blind tasting next to Alter Ego on Saturday, and the very first thing I noticed is that my beer has a much more pungent hop aroma (this isn't good, or bad. It was just much stronger). I've also noticed that my beer has a bite to it (presumably from the hops) that none of the Tree House beers seem to have. I'm beginning to thing that I'm using too many hops in the whirlpool and during dry hopping.

    The Tree House beer, while hoppy, was much more subdued and had plenty of maltiness on the nose. Needless to say, I enjoyed their beer more than my own.
     
  8. hoptualBrew

    hoptualBrew Defender (620) May 29, 2011 Florida
    Trader

    What about WLP008 East Coast Ale?

    "White Labs' "Brewer Patriot" strain can be used to reproduce many of the American versions of classic beer styles. Similar neutral character of WLP001, but less attenuation, less accentuation of hop bitterness, increased flocculation, and a little tartness. Very clean and low esters. Great yeast for golden, blonde, honey, pales and German alt style ales. Apparent attenuation: 70-75%. Flocculation: low–medium. Optimum temp: 68°-73° F"

    A few things jump out here: less accentuation of hop bitterness, low esters (can be increased with pitching rates, fermentation temp), and mild tartness as was noted earlier in the thread.
     
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  9. zizouandyuki

    zizouandyuki Aspirant (247) Nov 26, 2015 Texas

    I can't say that I've tried this one. I've been stuck on the 1318 wagon for a while, but maybe it's time for a change.

    Would love to hear from anyone who has used WLP008 for this style.
     
  10. JohnConnorforealthistime

    JohnConnorforealthistime Initiate (60) Mar 10, 2016 Wisconsin

    Before I had a ferm chamber, I was in my basement. No swamp cooler. Just relying on ambient temperature. In the winter, it was great. Kept me at 68* easy. Summer, I pushed 74-75*. I was afraid I was going to have a horrible beer. When I bottled, it smelled like I opened a can of peaches/pineapples. It was crazy awesome. I just did 68 to 70* but was still not satisfied. I think my next batch I'm going to try 72*. See what happens.

    I wish I could find the website I was on where they were talking about Treehouse fermenting high as well.
     
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  11. SFACRKnight

    SFACRKnight Meyvn (1,381) Jan 20, 2012 Colorado
    Trader

    Maybe its not first gen 1318 throwing those flavors. There is a good possibility that the yeast being used is recycled from previous generations.
     
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  12. jlordi12

    jlordi12 Devotee (463) Jun 8, 2011 Massachusetts

    I might try this out and see what happens
     
  13. zizouandyuki

    zizouandyuki Aspirant (247) Nov 26, 2015 Texas

    Thanks for sharing. You've convinced me to step my next batch up to ~69*F. Will happily report how it goes.
     
  14. JohnConnorforealthistime

    JohnConnorforealthistime Initiate (60) Mar 10, 2016 Wisconsin

    I'm sure in TH's case it is. In my case, I was using first gen 1318 and was throwing all sorts of flavors.
     
  15. Curmudgeon

    Curmudgeon Disciple (336) May 29, 2014 Massachusetts
    Society

    The few times I've been to Tree House, I've seen flasks marked "house yeast only". This talk of first gen (vs. 2nd, 3rd, etc. etc.) seems to hit at least one factor of their signature flavor. Let's not forget water profiles and carbonation as well. I know the thread is focusing on "yeast flavor" but the beauty of beer is the sum of its parts (when crafted well), right?

    I will say, @skimguy, there is also a very good chance you have a better palate than mine. I'm not that good at tasting. I do know the "Tree House flavor" you speak of. I am just unable to say that it's just a yeast thing. I like this thread. Always fun to talk about the beers you love and how we might try to clone!
     
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  16. SFACRKnight

    SFACRKnight Meyvn (1,381) Jan 20, 2012 Colorado
    Trader

    I have used 1318 several times, and I let it do its thing at room temp, about 68 in my house, and while it pitches some great tropical fruit and peach esters I haven't had any phenolic flavors. None of the commercial examples I have had exhibit bubblegum phenols either. All of my brewing experiences have been first gen yeast. I wonder if one were to brew a mild first and use second gen yeast how that would affect phenol production.
     
  17. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Poo-Bah (4,306) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society

    Most of the brewer’s yeast strains do not produce phenols. There are some yeast strains which are Phenolic Off Flavor producing (POF+) strains (e.g., Belgian and Hefeweizen strains, wild yeasts).

    Since Wyeast 1318 is an English ale yeast strain I would be surprised if it has the POF+ gene but I suppose stranger things have happened.

    Maybe Michael Tonsmiere (@OldSock) or Dave Green (@telejunkie) have some input here about the bubblegum flavor of Tree House beers.

    Cheers!
     
  18. JohnConnorforealthistime

    JohnConnorforealthistime Initiate (60) Mar 10, 2016 Wisconsin

    Completely agree, I've never had any off flavors. I've also never thought bubblegum using it either. I guess I've never tasted bubblegum from TH either so who knows.

    You're fermenting at 68* room temp. What does that put your beer temp at? 72-74*?
     
  19. zizouandyuki

    zizouandyuki Aspirant (247) Nov 26, 2015 Texas

    I'm in the same boat with this comment, but I do pick up tons of melon.

    I've only had one other beer that shares a similar flavor profile to Tree House's beers - The Veil's Eternal Eternal Shredder Shredder. The taste similarities are quite uncanny; however, EESS is nowhere near as turbid/hazy.
     
  20. popsicleian

    popsicleian Initiate (36) Jun 29, 2004 Minnesota

    I've only used 1318 once--in an ESB--and I got some really weird esters (like banana) fermenting it in the mid-high 60s. I've been hesitant to try it again.
     
  21. Hogue2112

    Hogue2112 Initiate (76) Apr 7, 2016 Ohio

    That sounds great! Mind sharing your brew notes?
     
  22. Curmudgeon

    Curmudgeon Disciple (336) May 29, 2014 Massachusetts
    Society

    Hey @skimguy! You're not crazy - I'm thinking about driving out to Tree House Saturday actually so I went on their site and they just updated their offerings with Curiosity Thirty. Juicy Fruit Gum!!
    CANS
    CURIOSITY THIRTY (American IPA - 7.0% ABV) - Our curiosity continues with an intensely kettle and dry hopped single IPA featuring a combination of both classic and modern American hops. The base of Thirty features pale malt and a bit of crystal malt to produce a beautiful glowing orange color in the glass. We experience intriguing flavors and aromas of pineapple, pear, jackfruit, and juicy fruit gum balanced by a soft bitterness. Thirty is dry and thirst quenching with a fluffy mouthfeel. Originally conceived in 2013, the Curiosity Series is now a mature and important set of beers for us. While contemplating Thirty, it’s fun to look back on what has been in light of what is to come. $4 / can | Limit 5 cans PP
     
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  23. SFACRKnight

    SFACRKnight Meyvn (1,381) Jan 20, 2012 Colorado
    Trader

    Maybe, I never check the temp. I just let em go. I want those esters.
     
  24. JohnConnorforealthistime

    JohnConnorforealthistime Initiate (60) Mar 10, 2016 Wisconsin

    Feel free to send some to Wisconsin for testing! :grinning:
     
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  25. JohnConnorforealthistime

    JohnConnorforealthistime Initiate (60) Mar 10, 2016 Wisconsin

    I can double check when I get home. From memory, I basically pitched yeast in the mid-60's, put it in my basement, and let it go. I might have started it with a light blanket on to keep it dark/I was worried it would get too cool at night. Now that I have my fermentation chamber, I think I'm going to do basically the same. Pitch the yeast mid-60's, let it take itself up to 72*, and hold it there until she finishes.
     
  26. Hogue2112

    Hogue2112 Initiate (76) Apr 7, 2016 Ohio

    Cool! What about your grain bill :slight_smile:
     
  27. GetMeAnIPA

    GetMeAnIPA Defender (613) Mar 28, 2009 California

    treehouse IPAs = juicy fruit gum, fruit stripes!
     
  28. GetMeAnIPA

    GetMeAnIPA Defender (613) Mar 28, 2009 California

    Notes from my another homebrewer who harvested yeast from a Treehouse house can. I have discussed brewing NE IPAs with this guy multiple times.

    "This yeast was a pain to work with. Took over a month for the yeast to drop. The first month any pours tasted like straight yeast"

    I asked how it compared to London 3 now that he has Used the treehouse yeast.

    "Definitely different. I am pretty sure it's a hef yeast. You can really tell when there is yeast in the glass from the keg. It has that signature treehouse bubble gum/juicy fruit character".

    I only saw a pic of the beer And it was nice and hazy. I can't verify the tasting notes as I didn't try the beer.

    Just some food for thought.
     
  29. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Poo-Bah (4,306) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Society

    An interesting thought. Hefeweizen yeast has the POF+ gene,

    Cheers!
     
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  30. zizouandyuki

    zizouandyuki Aspirant (247) Nov 26, 2015 Texas

    Any details on the fermentation temperatures with this one?

    I always associate cloves and banana with hefe yeast strains, although I'm sure there are variables that can control these two. These are two aromas and flavors I've never detected in TH's beers. Then again, I seem to missing the bubblegum, which even TH is now using as a descriptor :slight_smile:
     
  31. Curmudgeon

    Curmudgeon Disciple (336) May 29, 2014 Massachusetts
    Society

    Interesting!!! I wonder if @VikeMan and @OldSock and gang have played with Hefe yeasts for their NEIPAs. I feel like they've mostly been using 1318 (with great success I'll add).

    We've confirmed Tree House actually uses "juicy fruit gum" as one of the descriptors. I looked up some flavor profiles of juicy fruit gum and sure enough isoamyl acetate entered the picture. This links the common Hefe banana flavor with juicy fruit gum.

    Flavoring[edit]
    Which fruit serves as the model for its flavor is kept vague in advertising, though in 2003, advertising agency BBDO characterized it as a combination of banana and pineapple,[1] and some people[2] say it resembles jackfruit. According to two books in the Imponderables series, peach is one crucial flavor among many others.[3][4]

    It is likely that the chemical used for flavoring is isoamyl acetate (sometimes known as banana oil), a carboxylic ester.[5]

    This makes sense to me now that I think about it. Before I got into craft beer I hated IPAs. Back in the 90s when I was introduced to IPAs, the ones I had all had very sharp and piney tastes. Way too sharp for me. Then when I tried Tree House a few years ago I was blown away at how hoppy the beer was but with almost no pine or sharp bite but very "soft" (another one of their own descriptors) and round making it very easy to drink.

    Could isoamyl acetate counter some of the sharp piney hop flavors? Has anyone brewed a NEIPA using a Hefe strain?
     
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  32. hopfenunmaltz

    hopfenunmaltz Meyvn (1,477) Jun 8, 2005 Michigan

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  33. JohnConnorforealthistime

    JohnConnorforealthistime Initiate (60) Mar 10, 2016 Wisconsin

    Pretty simple 80% Golden Promise 20% Flaked Wheat. Hops were Nelson/Motuka (great combo btw).

    I checked my notes. What I have above is correct.
     
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  34. honkey

    honkey Zealot (572) Aug 28, 2010 Arizona
    Society Industry

    FWIW, I use Imperial Organic's equivalent to 1318 (A38 Juice, now available to homebrewers) at my brewery in Tombstone. I used Conan for a few batches at my old brewery before switching to the London Ale III. When I was doing trial batches with Conan, I actually thought that a few of the test batches could have been confused with Hefe yeast because of the intense esters produced. I even wondered if I had done an acid rest if I would have gotten phenols. I have no confirmation that Conan or 1318 are POF+, but I have seen where some brewers have said that they have gotten phenols from them. Whether or not these brewers were accurately describing phenols, or if they had wild yeast contaminants, I can't say.

    Now that I think about it, at my last brewery we did some open fermentation with Conan in a double IPA. One of the batches was transferred and the fermenter not cleaned until the next day and as that tank was cleaned, to me it smelled so strongly of juicy fruit it was almost unbearable.
     
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  35. GreenKrusty101

    GreenKrusty101 Crusader (749) Dec 4, 2008 Nevada

    You say that like it's a bad thing :slight_smile:... maybe from a tank cleaner's perspective
     
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  36. honkey

    honkey Zealot (572) Aug 28, 2010 Arizona
    Society Industry

    That's what assistants are for :wink:
     
  37. zizouandyuki

    zizouandyuki Aspirant (247) Nov 26, 2015 Texas

    I keep seeing phenols mentioned here, but I don't associate any of the characteristics of phenols with bubblegum, juicy fruit, etc. Wouldn't that be esters?

    I've always understood phenols to hold characteristics of cloves, bandaids, and other medicinal qualities.
     
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  38. GreenKrusty101

    GreenKrusty101 Crusader (749) Dec 4, 2008 Nevada

    Did they complain? ...or just work slower? :grinning:
     
  39. GreenKrusty101

    GreenKrusty101 Crusader (749) Dec 4, 2008 Nevada

    Smoked malt also... not always a flaw
     
  40. GreenKrusty101

    GreenKrusty101 Crusader (749) Dec 4, 2008 Nevada

    Good discussion of 4 VG in Yeast pgs 39-40
    Brett, too as well as smoked malt
     
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