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Unwanted Whales Clarification

Discussion in 'Beer It Forward' started by Urbancaver, May 9, 2012.

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  1. Urbancaver

    Urbancaver Nov 13, 2009 Ohio

    Since I know a lot of people have been following this BIF series and may have seen the chaos last night and the night before I want to post up a clarification of what happened and how it is being resolved:

    During the first round of the BIF I created algorithms for identifying disparities between personal rankings and overall rankings that help to match people up with the highest possible beer on their rankings.

    These algorithms and the ordering of the rankings did not take in to account different vintages of the same bottle. More specifically, when a list is sorted by bottle and it contained:
    Cable Car 2007
    Cable Car 2010
    they were not always sorted in the same order.

    As a result, the rankings database ended up with switched ranking numbers for some individuals.
    This was a mistake that I should have caught but did not and is in no way the fault of the person ranking the bottles.

    As a result of this, Beatification batch 2 and Ph1 were also not always recorded correctly.

    That said, because of the mistakes in the rankings, 2 people received bottles that they ranked significantly lower than their own bottles. They were both part of a very large chain.

    To remedy this situation I was fortunately able to cut the chain in half. One half of the chain will be closed back into a loop by one of the people (who has fortunately not yet shipped) sending to a different target.

    There are however, 8 people that will have to return the bottles they received. It sucks but there is no other way to remedy it.

    So, that said. I am adjusting algorithms for future rounds and still deciding whether to go forward with round 3. I do not want to end up with another mistake occurring.

    For those following the BIF, in the BIF, or just concerned in general with the comments last night:
    I apologize greatly for the mistakes that were made. I hope this will not effect your desire to participate in future BIFs or effect your opinion of me. If anyone has problems with me or the way this has been handled please do not hesitate to contact me:

    Thank you all for your understanding!
  2. surlytheduff

    surlytheduff Jul 22, 2010 Tajikistan
    Beer Trader

    I'm not a participant, just curious: two people are affected, right? They received bottles that they had ranked lower than what they sent out. One of the two people got a Beatification b2 - if you were to find someone that would do a 1 for 1 trade of the Beat b2 for something from the list of beers that they had ranked higher, wouldn't that sort of 'fix' the issue? I realize that might not be an easy task, but neither is shipping back a whole bunch of bottles.
  3. Urbancaver

    Urbancaver Nov 13, 2009 Ohio

    if it were that easy it would have already been done
  4. Tnudish

    Tnudish Feb 16, 2012 Wisconsin

    Problem is that no one above him wanted that beer since it already dropped to him
  5. surlytheduff

    surlytheduff Jul 22, 2010 Tajikistan
    Beer Trader

    I was thinking of trying to reach outside of the initial group. Cam has a lot of friends local and distant plus past trading partners; I just thought if there was some way to reach out to a larger group and find someone that would/could step up and offer a trade of a beer that was ranked above the beers that the shorted individuals for whatever they had received, it might be a way to remedy this. Having said that, I don't have a good understanding how this whole process works, and don't know if doing that would somehow negatively impact the other trades that happened.
  6. jsilva

    jsilva Nov 10, 2009 Massachusetts

    So basically two peoples hopes and dreams got crushed and have to send their whales back? That def sucks and hopefully will be made right even though looks like people will be out shipping money.
  7. Urbancaver

    Urbancaver Nov 13, 2009 Ohio

    Yeah, a few people are out some shipping money... but its the best I can do given the situation :(
  8. Verecund

    Verecund Aug 31, 2008 Texas

    With all due respect to the amount of work you've put into these BIFs, wouldn't the best you could do in this situationa situation created by you and for which you alone can be blamed, so far as I can tellbe to pay for, or at least subsidize, the shipping of the affected parties?
  9. AnnArborJoe

    AnnArborJoe Jan 18, 2011 Michigan

    I've been following and participated in Round 1. I appreciate your public post of the situation and how it is being resolved. I hope everyone ends up feeling OK about the resolution. I imagine the management of these BIFs has taken a great deal of effort that we all appreciate. Cheers!
  10. bauermj

    bauermj May 4, 2009 Illinois
    Beer Trader

    I think the dust is settling, a few bottles adjusted, and maybe 2 of us will have to ship boxes back and another 2-3 will have to in-person swap back.
  11. Tnudish

    Tnudish Feb 16, 2012 Wisconsin

    Good work gentlemen. Good to see things get resolved between everyone.
  12. AgentZero

    AgentZero Jul 19, 2009 Illinois

    I'm good, don't even have to pay to reship, so that is a nice bonus. Will swap stuff out when I'm back next week.
  13. brandon0350

    brandon0350 Dec 11, 2010 California

    My original whale is getting shipped back to me and the bottle im supposed to get will be shipped back once it arrives. It sucks to eat shipping cost twice and end up with your original bottle. I sent a message to the BA whos bottle im supposed to return and hopefully we can come up with a new trade to keep the bottle he sent me :/
  14. cosmicevan

    cosmicevan Dec 13, 2009 New York
    Beer Trader

    fingers crossed that everyone packs safely and the shippers handle the boxes properly.
  15. NarcoSolo

    NarcoSolo Jan 1, 2012 Pennsylvania

    My whale is returning home. Sadness. Oh well. FT: Cable Car 2010 if anyone is interested. :)

    Thanks for all your work anyway, Cam. Honest mistakes happen.
  16. AgentZero

    AgentZero Jul 19, 2009 Illinois

    Oh yeah, FT: Isabelle Proximus ISO: One of the 11 beers I ranked higher ;)
  17. pushkinwow

    pushkinwow Dec 20, 2006 Ontario (Canada)
    Beer Trader

    What did you rank higher?
  18. AgentZero

    AgentZero Jul 19, 2009 Illinois

    Midnight Sun 'M'
    Cantillon Don Quijote
    Wooden Hell
    Cable Car Kriek
    Bullfrog Black Cherry Bomb
    Cantillon Brabantiae
    Apple Brandy Hunahpu
    Beatification PH1
    Pappy Dark Lord
    3F Millenium Geuze
    Veritas 004

    I actually got the PVW DL yesterday, but will be returning it. Both PH1 and Millenium Geuze moved, but I don't know if I could have gotten those as well and was just unfortunate enough to be part of the chain that needed to reverse, or if I was just never in the running for those. Based on some rankings I know, MG could have come my way with the sender getting Framboos, assuming a home for Izzy was found in the chain. Oh well, guess someone had to draw unlucky.
  19. brystmar

    brystmar Sep 2, 2009 Texas

    Nobody else does either -- except the organizer -- and that seems to be the problem. The overall concept was posted, but the details are not public record. And this must be remedied before another round of this BIF begins.
  20. Shagtastic

    Shagtastic Jul 30, 2011 Indiana

    I don't see why it MUST be remedied. It is his BIF and he is free to do what he wishes with it. It was a mistake that could have happened to anyone and no one is being forced to join. I'm sure the bunch of people who were turned down would jump at a chance to join the next round even with this mistake.
  21. Urbancaver

    Urbancaver Nov 13, 2009 Ohio

    As I have stated before. I will not be sharing the details
    If that bothers you you're welcome to not participate
  22. seeswo

    seeswo Jan 10, 2010 Ohio
    Beer Trader

    There have to be 100 people on this site who can vouch for Urbancaver. Tons of work goes into this and the other BIFs. I'm glad most of you can recognize this for what it is - an excel error. The implications of some of the posts over the past few days have been pretty ridiculous. These are again the people who make it so we cannot have nice things :(
  23. NarcoSolo

    NarcoSolo Jan 1, 2012 Pennsylvania

    Excel error? He's clearly a witch. BUUUURN HIMMMM!

  24. Tnudish

    Tnudish Feb 16, 2012 Wisconsin

  25. brystmar

    brystmar Sep 2, 2009 Texas

  26. MasterSki

    MasterSki Dec 25, 2006 Ontario (Canada)
    Site Editor Subscriber Beer Trader

    This is the outcome I would expect if I had been successfully matched in this BIF. Otherwise I'd refuse to ship back until someone else sent me a shipping label.
  27. Domeshot14

    Domeshot14 Jul 10, 2011 California

    Your ball your rules! Although I'm not exactly sure what's even hidden here. The process seems pretty transparent and easily duplicated. The only thing not made public is everyone's personal rankings.

    I think this BIF would be a lot of fun with "Unwanted Non-Whales" because you would have to imagine almost all bottles end up getting shipped at that point!
  28. paslaugh

    paslaugh Feb 17, 2012 Illinois


    Actually it sounds like the 8 people in the chain are the ones really getting screwed. Imagine a superwhale showing up only to be told you have to send it back, oh, and you have to pay shipping. Seems like a lot of people are upset about beer that was supposedly "unwanted".

  29. Urbancaver

    Urbancaver Nov 13, 2009 Ohio

    A grand total of 2 people have to ship back bottles

    And they are both okay with it.
  30. Urbancaver

    Urbancaver Nov 13, 2009 Ohio

    Member Since: Feb 16, 2012

    I would appreciate it if people not involved in this BIF would refrain from cluttering this thread. Especially ones whose tenure on this site is so short
  31. paslaugh

    paslaugh Feb 17, 2012 Illinois

    If the intent of the message wasn't supposed to be public, then maybe you should have directed the original post only to the affected BIF parties instead of posting it to the public forum. You're the one that opened this up to unsolicited commentary. Doesn't take a long tenure on the site to figure out how to start a private conversation with only the intended recipients of the message.
  32. waltersrj

    waltersrj Dec 16, 2010 Washington

    Someone else had commented in the original thread about the problem before Cam could email everyone. He tried to keep it private but a comment was made...more followed (from people that aren't in this BIF) so he HAD to make a clarification thread. People are so hostile about shit they aren't personally involved in. Cam made a mistake, felt terrible about it, and quickly remedied it all. He's a good and caring guy so give him a freaking break.
  33. brandon0350

    brandon0350 Dec 11, 2010 California

    I would participate in this BIF again, and i was one of the guys that matched then shipped and is now getting my bottle returned.
  34. Urbancaver

    Urbancaver Nov 13, 2009 Ohio

    Thanks Brandon. I was really glad to get that bottle intercepted so you don't have to ship a return bottle!
    I think for the most part none of the complaining is coming from BIF participants
  35. Mages64

    Mages64 Sep 7, 2009 Washington
    Beer Trader

    Um no one has said it yet so I guess I will:

    I am 100% ok with Cam taking complete control of 3.0 with his stated excel error being fixed. If you aren't comfortable with it, don't participate. But for me, let's do round 3.0! :)
  36. waltersrj

    waltersrj Dec 16, 2010 Washington

    I'm not doing round 3, but only because I did rounds 1 & 2. When 4 comes around down with Cam running it too! You've done awesome!
  37. Shagtastic

    Shagtastic Jul 30, 2011 Indiana

    Its a good thing you weren't matched then huh?
  38. MasterSki

    MasterSki Dec 25, 2006 Ontario (Canada)
    Site Editor Subscriber Beer Trader

    I suppose it was. I'm not wealthy enough to throw away money shipping beer for no purpose.
  39. AgentZero

    AgentZero Jul 19, 2009 Illinois

    Money burning a hole in your pocket? Most people don't enjoy spending money for nothing. If you do though, I've got a bridge I could sell you...
  40. AleWatcher

    AleWatcher Jan 25, 2009 Illinois

    I think the Bros should use the money from the kickstarter program and cover the shipping costs.
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