1. Trying to obtain a specific beer? Looking for a proxy or trustee? Tired of trading on other platforms? We've got you covered. Join our Beer Trading community to unlock this forum and new features!

    Todd, Founder of BeerAdvocate

User @HOPSareKey ... What's the Story?

Discussion in 'Bad Traders' started by F2brewers, Jan 9, 2015.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. HOPSareKey

    HOPSareKey Initiate (0) Oct 12, 2012 Illinois

    thank you @kgncfl for the modest support.

    another quick point I would like to bring up is my 19 positive reviews on here. I understand 19 is nothing compared to many, but it should account for at least something.

    apparently negative comments on a thread can account for something and I have never actually had personal experience with any of them. they are only talking from hearsay. and maliciously false hearsay at that.

    I have personally traded with those 19 and they will all vouch that our trades went fine.
  2. Irrenarzt

    Irrenarzt Initiate (0) Mar 1, 2009 New Mexico

    My take is Mart is a fiend for trade hype and parlayed the hype generated from his posting of the 6 nuts he gathered into bigger trades than he originally promised. Is this a scumbag move? Most likely so. But the truth is he is as guilty as anyone else who allows the hype to get to them. I don't like how he treated Wiingman but it's done. At least the dude isn't guilty of re-waxing assassins and flat out deception. Should you trade with him? Probably not. Hopefully he will learn to treat others as he would like to be treated himself from this event and hopefully he can grow from this incident.

    Imagine the damage he would have done if he had a Kiwi Herman yesterday.
    Ericksne and dthompson0279 like this.
  3. mps

    mps Initiate (0) Jul 27, 2013 Ohio

    @HOPSareKey and I talked about a trade for a Nuthulu...we had a exchanged quite a few messages and were trying to finalize a deal over a few days when he came back and told me he had traded all his bottles away all of a sudden. I didn't really take it personally and he seemed genuinely sorry for having wasted some of my time and it didn't really raise any flags for me back then
    JavaNoire likes this.
  4. CSO

    CSO Savant (1,098) Jan 31, 2014 Illinois

    I have seen how this guy handles himself in many of his previous ISO:FT threads (combative, dismissive of people offering genuine advice, etc), so even without this latest debacle, he had DNT written all over him.
  5. JavaNoire

    JavaNoire Initiate (0) Dec 4, 2010 Iowa

    CSO, could you provide links & specific examples? Despite a fairly hostile environment, HOPSareKey has remained calm & courteous here.

    It would be helpful if others that are making allegations of overt dishonesty would supply very specific info as to exactly what transpired, who was cheated/wronged, which trades were finalized & how he failed to follow through as he'd promised.

    It initially appeared he'd failed to send beer he'd committed to yet he's stated that's not true. It also read as though he'd substituted inferior beers but he's said that never happened either. In fact he's stated that no trades were finalized, no addresses exchanged.

    So far the most detailed & specific info here has been provided by the accused. People making allegations that he's a bad trader should dispute his explanations & to be very specific as to exactly what grievous wrongs he committed.
  6. JavaNoire

    JavaNoire Initiate (0) Dec 4, 2010 Iowa

    Posted by @wiingman on the other thread:

    I can tell you from my side of the story. We were in a beer group together on Facebook. He posted in that beer group that he would be going to the Nutulhu release and would try to trade them to members of the group first. I felt we had a trade worked out of 3 Atrial Rubicites and 1 other JK fruited sour for a Nutulhu. That was over $4$, but was that below market value? Probably, but like I said, the idea of the group was for members of the group to trade with each other and feel like it's a big group of regular trading partners, send awesome extras, be hooked up on the next trade, etc. If he was unsure of the trade, he could have said no, or put in a qualifier that he needed to see how many he could get before committing. He did none of that. He posted a pic in the group the night of the release of 6 Nutulhus. That certainly implied that he acquired plenty for whatever trades he had lined up.

    The next day he started posting FT: Nutulhu, ISO: KBBS, BA Abraxas, BVDL, etc. on this website and other places. Trade some inside the group, some outside, still fine. I waited a day to hear from him, then messaged him asking about the status of our trade. He then told me that the Nutulhu he was agreeing to trade to me was actually for a friend who didn't end up going to the release. He assured me that he had another friend he could get 1 from if I could just add 1 more Atrial on my side and gave him a day or two. I reluctantly agreed. He then continued to string me along for a few days. Myself and several other members of the group complained to the admin. Turns out he had lined up several trades with members of the group, without honoring any of them, giving each person similar excuses and stall tactics. He was given an oppurtunity to complete the trades he agreed to and hasn't yet completed any of them, yet he keeps posting ISOs offering the same beer for trade that he told those he agreed to trade with that he didn't have. He's obviously gone from that group. The frustrating thing for me is that I passed up several other Nutulhu offers because I thought I had one secured, and now they are virtually impossible to get.

    @HOPSareKey can you address the discrepancies between what wingman claims transpired & your version of events? Did you have an extensive conversation with wingman where you agreed to trade a Nuthulu for 4/5JKs? Did you make trade agreements with other people? You've stated you did not exchange addresses, but did you ever simply state that you would make a particular trade?

    @wiingman even if you felt you had one locked down, why would you pass up other opportunities to get Nuthulu for 4/5 JK sours or something equivalent? There are worse fates than possessing 2 Nuthulus. Nuthulu was never easy to land. I'm not convinced it's a lot harder to get now than when it was initially released. A lot of people acquire beers only to almost immediately re-trade em for the newer, shinier beer of the moment.
    #46 JavaNoire, Jan 10, 2015
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2015
    Abbbp likes this.
  7. HOPSareKey

    HOPSareKey Initiate (0) Oct 12, 2012 Illinois

    Id like to not get into another huge debate again today.What I stated in my initial response is what happened. His version is mostly correct as well. I admit we were very close on the trade. This is my fault on calling it off. Because of my initial trades falling through, It was unavoidable. I felt bad And I apologized. However, we did not exchange shipping address and it was not 100% confirmed. I gave him ample notice and no loss occured. Not desirable On my end, no doubt.

    This isn't a normal practice for me. This was an insane cluster fuck of a situation and have learned from it.
    cfh64 likes this.
  8. HOPSareKey

    HOPSareKey Initiate (0) Oct 12, 2012 Illinois

    Everyone has to remember too, I had 4 trades back out on me in this whole ordeal and I have not put a single one of them on blast.

    Trades that fall apart are something that happens in this community unfortunately. I have learned to accept it. others have not.

    That's no excuse for my actions, just merely a reason why I didn't blast any of the people that backed out on me
  9. jrnyc

    jrnyc Pooh-Bah (2,916) Mar 21, 2010 New York
    Pooh-Bah Trader

    This is what happens when you start wheeling and dealing and acting like Gordon Gekko of the beer trading world.
  10. jrnyc

    jrnyc Pooh-Bah (2,916) Mar 21, 2010 New York
    Pooh-Bah Trader

    I have been trading on this site for 3+ years with many people and never had a trade fall apart. When you play fast and loose with beers you may or may not have and try to maximize every last ounce of beer, thats how trades fall apart. These are not unfortunate random acts of nature.
  11. Immortale25

    Immortale25 Grand Pooh-Bah (3,489) May 13, 2011 North Carolina
    Pooh-Bah Trader

    Assuming that all of these backed-out-of trades were relayed within the realm of Facebook, the lesson learned here is to not use a non-moderated social media site for trading but rather a site that has trade request/accept mechanisms and feedback systems in place...like the one we're posting on right now.
    F2brewers, JavaNoire and Duff27 like this.
  12. JavaNoire

    JavaNoire Initiate (0) Dec 4, 2010 Iowa

    @HOPSareKey did you get 6 Nuthulu? How many did you feel reasonably certain of getting? How many pre-trades did you make for Nuhulu, ie how many had you committed to trading prior to acquiring them? For the purposes of this discussion lets include those trades where you were 'very close'.

    Also, (& just trying to more fully understand), how are you differentiating 'very close' from confirmed & committed? Exactly what made the trade very close rather than locked down?

    And again, I'm not trying to badger you. I'm just trying to sort out the similarities & differences between your perspective & wiingman's.

    Given the info rec'd, I don't understand accusations that HOPSareKey is a thief. That's an ugly accusation to toss around. For those that believe he's a thief, what has he stolen?

    @tat2dhllblly you stated that he would receive 2 Sumps & then ship renegotiated shelf beers, if he shipped anything at all. You also referred to beer he's stolen. Where/when has he substituted beer after receiving what he agreed on? Where/when has he neglected to ship? What has he stolen, when.& where?

    @RealBeerDrinkers you called him a thief & a liar in the other thread. Elucidate, please. In what way is he a thief & a liar?

    @F2brewers deservedly or not, a reputation is being trashed here. It behooves those making specific accusations of thievery to back em up. If they can't they should -imo- recant & apologize.

    So far, what we've seen is, at worst, minor douchery. Surely disgruntled members of a FB trading group didn't descend on BA to incite a cyber gang bang because of their unhappiness with HOPSareKey. So what was stolen, from whom & when?

    Someone referred to him as shady. Perhaps. I'm undecided on that, but if the bald & bold accusations made here that he's a thief can't be supported, that is seriously shady. It would also be a very poor use of BA resources & good will.
  13. kgncfl

    kgncfl Initiate (0) Dec 24, 2013 Washington

    I was posting the same thing, but you said it better so I deleted. I used the word shady. I'm just looking at his comments and the comments as a whole. The shady comment refers to the amount of pre-trades he lined up vs the amount of bottles he actually got. It just feels off. Plus I'm not a big fan of chumming the waters using a picture of rare beer to see what I can catch, or trying to get the best deal available. That is what comes of as shady, nothing truly wrong with it, just not how I like to roll.

    You are spot on about the accusations. We need to hear some more about those.
    LehighAce06 and Mipper like this.
  14. kmello69

    kmello69 Initiate (0) Nov 27, 2011 Texas

    This whole thing is a bit confusing, as lots of unsupported allegations have been made, but this is the thing that keeps bothering me the most. You keep saying that this was all out of your control, or "unavoidable", and thats garbage. If you made a deal, you stick to it.

    I've made plenty of deals where, after the fact but before shipping or even getting an address, I've had second thoughts, or someone offered me something else that I was REALLY looking for, etc. But as a man of my word, I stood by those first trades and bit the bullet.

    Only when you're trying to play the market and maximize value do these "unavoidable" things happen. You could have actually avoided it by being a man of your word, but that didn't seem to play in to things here.

    Does that make you a bad trader? Maybe - kind of a gray area. Does it make you untrustworthy? 100%
    Coldstorage, vurt, mps and 6 others like this.
  15. JavaNoire

    JavaNoire Initiate (0) Dec 4, 2010 Iowa

    @kmello69 Would it make him a thief?

    If he isn't a thief, what do the accusations say about the people that made them? Name calling can be cool. I can get into it. So, if he isn't a thief, what names would you call those people? Are they trustworthy?

    Unless he's a thief, it is -imo- poor form to use BA to hash out differences originating on another site/group as we don't know what that site's TOS are or what the rules & agreements are within the group. It's entirely possible he pissed people off without breaking any rules, lying or stealing. My boss does that several times a day.
    jtmiller03, jdhowe and mlhyatt like this.
  16. da_bulls

    da_bulls Initiate (0) Jun 7, 2012 Illinois

    Honestly, this is what I always think when someone starts a butthurt bad trader thread.
  17. wiingman

    wiingman Initiate (0) Aug 22, 2013 Texas

    I would like to stress that I have tried to stay out of this after venting and posting my side of the story. I stand behind my original post 100% and have screenshots to support it. I never called anyone a thief, and have not done any name calling or trash talking. I just wanted someone to honor their commitments. As to why I didn't trade for more nutulhus? I didn't say that there were other people offering 1 for 4/5 JK sours. I said that I didn't try to chase other opportunities. I wanted one bottle, not a case. Look at recent postings by me, I've posted several ISOs for Nutulhu lately, and I have a lot besides JK sours to trade. It is very frustrating though when other trading partners/friends around the country tell you they were able to trade 1:1 with DB Huna, Assassin, BA Abraxas (even directing you to ISOs that you pass on because you think you already have a bottle secured) and the market now seems to be asking for much more than that. My tasting group appears to have finally locked down a bottle though, hopefully it's worth the hype.
    james582 likes this.
  18. JavaNoire

    JavaNoire Initiate (0) Dec 4, 2010 Iowa

    @wiingman I appreciate that you shared your experience, which HOPSareKey largely confirms. Your post seems to be about the only solid info given so far. It's notable as well, that your account was straightforward & refrained from name calling.

    I understand if you don't wish to participate further, but if you don't mind, do you have any idea why you considered the trade locked down while HOPSareKey felt that it hadn't been finalized? Again, if you prefer not to answer, I understand & don't think that in any way reflects badly on you.
  19. joey_b

    joey_b Initiate (0) Aug 5, 2014 Texas

    I traded dude for a BVDL. He definitely string me along for a bit and tried to consistently get me to add to already agreed upon deals but ultimately he sent it and we were both happy. Just seems like he wants to win all trades at all costs. Is what it is. If he had something I was looking for Id trade with him again, but knowing what I was getting myself into
    mythaeus likes this.
  20. rightcoast7

    rightcoast7 Maven (1,294) Apr 2, 2011 Maine

    Barring further revelations, I'm on the same page. Seems like a lot of crying and unnecessary vitriol for backing out of a couple trades. Backing out of a trade with me will earn you an annoyed shrug and probably bar you from future trade consideration, but I'm not going to freak out about it.
    SurlyUtopia likes this.
  21. WI-Beer-Man

    WI-Beer-Man Initiate (0) May 29, 2014 Wisconsin

    This post solidifies my opinion of him based on other already deleted ISO/FT posts...he auctions to highest bidder and then keeps asking them to add more. #Alwayswinning

    How many of those "backed out trades" were due to you gouging the other trader or asking for more than the initially agreed on beers?
    Duff27, mythaeus, jrnyc and 1 other person like this.
  22. King_Ranch

    King_Ranch Initiate (0) Feb 19, 2014 Texas

    BA Trading Talk & Help section is a beautiful thing.

    Great reading material to pass the time at work.
    rozzom, B-Nut-GoBlue, mps and 4 others like this.
  23. jrnyc

    jrnyc Pooh-Bah (2,916) Mar 21, 2010 New York
    Pooh-Bah Trader

    Auctions are against the rules, hard to enforce if it is outside of the threads themselves and certainly very subjective. But the spirit of the rules is person x has x beers and wants y beers.
  24. F2brewers

    F2brewers Maven (1,366) Mar 12, 2005 Massachusetts
    Society Trader

    i agree.

    that's why the thread title is what it is. if people want to call someone out, they should back it up. i've spoken to @HOPSareKey by BM and encouraged him to tell his side. he has, and, as you noted, without getting overly emotional about it. he's upset and that's to be expected given the circumstances.

    as we've seen, he and @wiingman mostly agree on their stories. imo, it would be good for him if there were other users here who could back up his side of things too.

    if there's nothing more to say on the topic, i'll lock the thread and leave it up for reference. it's not the first time someone has been accused of something negative here and a discussion put things in a somewhat different light.
    Yohann, mythaeus, Cfeezy and 3 others like this.
  25. WI-Beer-Man

    WI-Beer-Man Initiate (0) May 29, 2014 Wisconsin

    It is too bad most of his previous threads got deleted, it would definitely add to the "story" here on what type of trader he is...
    jrnyc likes this.
  26. HOPSareKey

    HOPSareKey Initiate (0) Oct 12, 2012 Illinois

    I did not pretrade more than I had

    I didn't post the picture to get offers. Had initial trades locked for bottles I knew I had.

    My initial trades fell apart, so I had to go to back to the drawing board. when I did, had to give more and such so the one with russell had to go on the back burner because his trade didn't involve my main iso. I needed my main iso with these nuthulus. Limited release, waited in the cold. I needed to hold out for my mains. Agree or disagree, that is my rationale.

    Again, I know it sounds shitty, and it is. let's get real though, this isn't even close to the worst that has happened. We quickly set something up, I got busy with messages and work and didnt respond the rest of the day. before I knew it, my first trades were in shambles. I alerted russell right away.

    I know my actions are on the shady side. Unfortunately when you're dealing with whalez, anyone who doesn't get one is going to be hurt.

    We never exchanged addresses, never shipped, and I alerted him the very next day.

    @JavaNoire yes, that disgruntled facebook group did descend on BA to start stuff. They felt more nuthulus should have went to those members. that's how they are.

    This has all got blown way out of proportion. That's nice that some of you have never had a trade fall through. I have never fucked anyone over once it has been agreed upon to ship. I send awesome extras. I take care of people.

    We can go back and fourth all day with this. I listed my reasons and explanations the best I could. For anyone that is still confused or thinks I need to further explain myself, I'm sorry.

    For those that modestly supported me, I thank you.

    for those that made malicious accusations, please provide proof or apologize for your actions and there will be no hard feelings.

    mod edit: fixed tag
    #66 HOPSareKey, Jan 10, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 10, 2015
    Yohann, F2brewers and Brewzer1010 like this.
  27. kgncfl

    kgncfl Initiate (0) Dec 24, 2013 Washington

    The only problem with this is that there are several accusers who came in early and aren't circling back to back up their comments. Throwing around the word thief, and claiming that bottles weren't sent should be addressed IMO.

    Almost feels like the accusers need their own outing thread until they come with some answers (I'm definitely not suggesting this happens, but if it were the other way around the "accused" would have a thread).
    HOPSareKey likes this.
  28. F2brewers

    F2brewers Maven (1,366) Mar 12, 2005 Massachusetts
    Society Trader

    funny that you mention this...i just sent @HOPSareKey a BM stating almost the same thing. :wink:

    that's why i wanted to have this thread...to let people discuss openly. when you shine a light on things, sometimes they aren't what they initially seem.

    fortunately, this thread hasn't turned to a complete crapshow and for that you're all to be commended. and no, that's not a cue to take it off the rails.
    JavaNoire, Yohann, Cfeezy and 4 others like this.
  29. kgncfl

    kgncfl Initiate (0) Dec 24, 2013 Washington

    Us MA guys got to stick together (native MA in my case).
    F2brewers likes this.
  30. F2brewers

    F2brewers Maven (1,366) Mar 12, 2005 Massachusetts
    Society Trader

    not native, but i've lived here long enough that the bruins game is on and we're counting down to the pats this afternoon. :wink:
  31. DrewSimm

    DrewSimm Initiate (0) Nov 20, 2013 Illinois

    Have no fear all, I have agreed to trade @wiingman a Nutulhu. Will be on its way to warmer lands Monday.
  32. JavaNoire

    JavaNoire Initiate (0) Dec 4, 2010 Iowa

    I'm largely indifferent to people maximizing their trades or squeezing value out of limited release high demand beers. If it's true, such practices are neither rare, nor unique. Hell, some members posting to this thread could easily be accused of *gasp* trying to win. People should avoid making trades that appear unfair or disagreeable. I gave up more than some people would for a Nuthulu so I've got one. I wasn't willing to part with what it takes to land KBBS so I <sob, rant, whiiine> don't have it. Life.

    Finagling to obtain more than what was agreed upon is just wrong. That's not a gray area. It's not stealing but it is decidedly shady. Once a trade is agreed upon there shouldn't be additional wrangling to obtain more or better beer. @HOPSareKey even a guy who says he'd trade with you again is claiming that you do this. If so, STOP. Just stop. Know what you want, what you will accept & then scrupulously abide by the agreed upon terms.
    Mipper, BigRedDog, dmbforever and 4 others like this.
  33. jrnyc

    jrnyc Pooh-Bah (2,916) Mar 21, 2010 New York
    Pooh-Bah Trader

    Where there is smoke there is fire. Lots of ire from multiple people in this thread and trader in questions defense is going to land this guy on a lot of DNT lists.
  34. F2brewers

    F2brewers Maven (1,366) Mar 12, 2005 Massachusetts
    Society Trader

    likely true, but without this thread, he would be on *everyone's* DNT list...which was, i think, the point of the initial vitriol. now, at least the is *some* balance to the situation.

    there's always at least three sides to every story. open discussion helps us all understand the situation and, hopefully, make better choices.
    Yohann, jrnyc, HOPSareKey and 3 others like this.
  35. HOPSareKey

    HOPSareKey Initiate (0) Oct 12, 2012 Illinois

    Yes very true. I understand that I will always have haters. I understand that it's going to be hard for me to lock stuff down for a while. I do get access to excellent beers though and I do enjoy trading for stuff I cannot get.

    If a trade does come across I like or if I decide to make an iso:ft, I will go back to the beginning and ship first for a while to ease everyone's concerns.
    cfh64 and mlhyatt like this.
  36. CSO

    CSO Savant (1,098) Jan 31, 2014 Illinois

    I agree completely that open discussion helps bring a better understanding to the situation, but without your intervention this discussion would likely have never taken place. Many people were looking for an explanation and @HOPSareKey 's response was silence along with reporting them to have their posts removed. It just seems strange that if he feels he did nothing wrong, why was he so hesitant to explain his side.
  37. mlhyatt

    mlhyatt Initiate (0) Jul 27, 2013 Georgia

    While i don't condone his activity, i hardly think an ISO:FT FORUM is the appropriate forum to repel a plethora of attacks against him. He was cornered and nothing he would have said would have given any light in that situation since it probably would have been locked or deleted or moved to this section anyway. This was a much better venue.
    jshusc and JavaNoire like this.
  38. JavaNoire

    JavaNoire Initiate (0) Dec 4, 2010 Iowa

    CSO, if those who blatantly accused him of theft were telling the truth why haven't they come forward to corroborate their very serious accusations? Does that seem strange? Or does it seem like they have no reasonable excuse for what appear to be unfounded & base allegations?

    As stated earlier, I don't condone HOPSareKey's renegotiating finalized trades, however I have even bigger concerns with what appears to be people spreading blatant lies to trash his reputation & interfere with his ability to trade. His iso:ft thread was completely fucked up & subsequently closed because of people trolling the thread.

    From the explanations HOPSareKey has proffered I don't think he feels entirely right in what he did. He's described his behavior as 'shitty' & largely agrees with wiingman's assessment of what transpired. The sticking point seems to be HOPSareKey's insistence the trade was not finalized while wiingman believes it was.

    There is a general dislike for people seeking to 'win' trades, Again, renegotiating closed trades is unequivocally wrong. However, he isn't alone in trying to 'win' trades. Many (including myself) would consider trading 3 JK Atrial Rubecites + another unspecified JK sour as a rather impressive win. Even expanding it to 5 JKs is a mind boggling win considering what Nuthulu has been pulling. Am I opposed to that? While I wouldn't make that trade I'm not opposed to any trade which is mutually agreed upon by experienced traders. (I do object to exploiting the naivete of inexperienced & trusting traders, usually newbies but that doesn't apply here.)

    While HOPSareKey has come under close scrutiny in this thread there are others even more deserving of some tough questions. IF people have LIED about what he's done to advance a personal vendetta their transgression is far uglier & more serious than anything he's been shown to have done. Such people are no better than out & out beer thieves, imo.
  39. JavaNoire

    JavaNoire Initiate (0) Dec 4, 2010 Iowa

    Gotta say...NOTHING I've seen here tempts me to consider trading on FB.
  40. dmbforever

    dmbforever Initiate (0) May 8, 2013 Wisconsin

    And this type of stuff makes me thankful I've made some great trading partners!
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.