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News What would loss of Boston Beer do to Independent Craft?

Discussion in 'Beer News & Releases' started by Haybeerman, Aug 30, 2017.

  1. Haybeerman

    Haybeerman Poo-Bah (2,236) May 21, 2008 Colorado
    Supporter Subscriber Beer Trader

  2. jesskidden

    jesskidden Meyvn (1,278) Aug 10, 2005 New Jersey
    Subscriber

    Except the Brewers Association FULL definition for "Traditional" clearly states:
    So, if BBC actual beer total falls to 1.8m bbl. for 2017, that's what the Brewers .Association will count. Just as, for 2017, they listed Boston Beer Co. at "2,315,000 barrels" while BBC's own ANNUAL REPORT says:
     
  3. GetMeAnIPA

    GetMeAnIPA Zealot (560) Mar 28, 2009 California
    Beer Trader

    To me the definition and term "craft" isn't all that important, so it wouldn't effect me. I will continue to buy, drink and enjoy my Boston Lager.
     
  4. MNAle

    MNAle Champion (830) Sep 6, 2011 Minnesota

    Yes, that is what they count in the craft beer production stats. But, the overall company still needs to keep its "traditional and innovative" beer volume at or above 50% of its "total beverage alcohol volume." Presumably, the ciders and teas are included in the "total beverage alcohol volume."
     
    rgordon and Haybeerman like this.
  5. jesskidden

    jesskidden Meyvn (1,278) Aug 10, 2005 New Jersey
    Subscriber

    Oh, yeah - I see (the Globe locked me out of the article with the warnings
    ... so I gotta wait until Sept. 1 to finish it. :wink:
    Hmmm...looks like its getting time for Uncle Charlie, Gatza and the BA Board to rewrite the rules again (can't they anticipate this !@#$?), 'cause that's what they admitted back in '11 - that booting BBC would reduce the "Craft" share by a significant percentage (around 20% IIRC). Back then anyway - BBC's share of Craft is smaller these days.
     
    rgordon, LuskusDelph, jmdrpi and 2 others like this.
  6. MNAle

    MNAle Champion (830) Sep 6, 2011 Minnesota

    Pro trick: have more than one browser on your computer! :wink:
     
    dennis3951 likes this.
  7. Haybeerman

    Haybeerman Poo-Bah (2,236) May 21, 2008 Colorado
    Supporter Subscriber Beer Trader

    And Truly the new seltzer
     
  8. lordofthemark

    lordofthemark Aspirant (290) Jan 28, 2015 Virginia

    Could BBC spinoff Angry Orchard, etc into a wholly owned subsidiary? BA definition of craft says a craft brewery can't be owned by another alcoholic beverage industry participant not a craft brewer, but does it say a craft brewer can't OWN another alcoholic beverage industry participant?
     
    Haybeerman likes this.
  9. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Poo-Bah (3,016) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Supporter

    "...looks like its getting time for Uncle Charlie, Gatza and the BA Board to rewrite the rules again..."

    I personally have no doubt that the Brewers Association will re-write the rules to permit BBC to remain a craft brewery per their (updated) definition.

    While there may be fluidity to how the Brewers Association defines a craft brewery the constant is that they will remain true to their agenda(s).

    Cheers!
     
  10. Haybeerman

    Haybeerman Poo-Bah (2,236) May 21, 2008 Colorado
    Supporter Subscriber Beer Trader

    Wholly owned subsidiary means just that - its still owned by the parent company so nothing would change. Definition:

    A wholly owned subsidiary is a company that is completely owned by another company. The company that owns the subsidiary is called the parent company or holding company. The parent company will hold all of the subsidiary's common stock.

    If BBC would sell the brands to another party relinquishing ownership and control (be a wholly owned subsidiary different company with different ownership) then it wouldn't count. I don't know if the 25% rule works the other way (if BBC owned less than 25% the volume wouldn't count).
     
  11. BWood

    BWood Defender (657) Jan 4, 2015 California
    Beer Trader

    They make beer in Boston :astonished:
     
    ECOBOOSTINST likes this.
  12. lordofthemark

    lordofthemark Aspirant (290) Jan 28, 2015 Virginia

    [Q
    Fixed that for you.

    Craft is, at heart, a community. People who have been through the beer wars (so to speak) for over 20 years. Jim Koch is part of that community. The brewers who are smaller than BBC, and don't own a big cider company, know that.

    I am sure they don't think it makes him less part of them because he owns a big cider company, then it would if he owned a big bread bakery.

    I am sure they will find a way to work that out.

    I am sure people here will complain that they kept Jim in the club, while excluding those who have sold their breweries to very larger beer companies.
     
  13. cjgiant

    cjgiant Poo-Bah (3,575) Jul 13, 2013 District of Columbia
    Supporter Subscriber Beer Trader

    I think it might be a tad more complex, but suspect they will find a way for now to keep BBC in the fold somehow. The question against what was mentioned in the article about the history the BA has with Koch might be how ciders and such might be eating into beer sales as a [cheaper?] alternative. Is Koch and BBC's interests solely with other independent brewers [of beer]?

    The article seems to hint many still believe yes. But will there come a point where that changes? This might not be it, but if the trends the article mentions continue, will there be a breaking point?
     
  14. lordofthemark

    lordofthemark Aspirant (290) Jan 28, 2015 Virginia

    Huh? First I don't think Angry Orchard ciders are much (if at all) cheaper tha SA flagship beers - and certainly not cheaper than say Yuengling. The exclusion of non traditional ingredients is to make sure the BA remains a beer association, and that a company that essentially just makes FMBs is not included. Its not about the per bottle price, I think. And cider sales are in fact declining now, IIUC - they are not "eating into" the sales of other brewers ( I think even AO sales are stagnant, just doing bettetr than SA beer sales - the weaker player in cider I think is Woodchuck, which lost a lot of share both to AO and to other players)
     
  15. dlcarst

    dlcarst Aspirant (254) Aug 21, 2015 Illinois
    Subscriber Beer Trader

    Interesting. Near me is a winery/brewery/cidery. I'm quite sure that beer is less than half their business, but it's definitely a significant chunk. Basically it's a brewery that makes a couple ciders attached to a winery, all owned by the same people. So even though they brew traditional beers in small batches, II guess it doesn't qualify as a craft brewery?
     
  16. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Poo-Bah (3,016) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Supporter

    There was no need for a fix.
     
  17. cjgiant

    cjgiant Poo-Bah (3,575) Jul 13, 2013 District of Columbia
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    Ok, I was thinking maybe cheaper than others' beers, like DFH or Schlafly, but we can ignore that minor question I had and say it's not cheaper.

    However, unless I missed the article, the whole point is that BBC is potentially becoming a FMB company, with > 50% FMB. I was simply saying at some point, that may be an issue if the BA perceives that BBC might start pushing more for growth of that segment than beer.
     
  18. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Poo-Bah (3,016) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Supporter

    Yup, that is indeed a valid point.
    In my opinion that is not likely to happen. The Brewers Association will in all probability change their rules to keep BBC as an independent craft brewery. They have been pretty consistent in keeping to their agenda(s).

    Cheers!
     
    cavedave and LuskusDelph like this.
  19. cjgiant

    cjgiant Poo-Bah (3,575) Jul 13, 2013 District of Columbia
    Supporter Subscriber Beer Trader

    I have the same opinion, for now. But I think this is also a bit of a different animal than the 2M or 6M bbl limit previous change.
     
  20. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Poo-Bah (3,016) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Supporter

    And that may very well be but the Brewers Association, in my opinion, still wants to count the beer volume of BBC as part of the overall Independent Craft Beer volume. I am predicting that this aspect will 'win out' despite the aspect of Etymology here.

    Cheers!
     
  21. Haybeerman

    Haybeerman Poo-Bah (2,236) May 21, 2008 Colorado
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    What Jim Koch acomplished should be appreciated and never be forgotten. These brewing entrepreneurs work hard, risk much, spur the economy, create jobs and leave legacies. If they were dependent on what a small minority think or the view of their business from an industry association, none of them would have made it. Some of them were even bold enough to put their name on the brewery and on the bottle/can/keg for generations.
     
    #21 Haybeerman, Aug 31, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2017
  22. Haybeerman

    Haybeerman Poo-Bah (2,236) May 21, 2008 Colorado
    Supporter Subscriber Beer Trader

    Why don't they just go at it the other way; Make a list of all the breweries they don't want labeled as independent craft. As brewers not on that list sell to brewers on that list, they get added to that list. Done, no more ambiguity, politics and cutouts for favored sons.
     
  23. Sponan

    Sponan Aspirant (219) Jan 20, 2008 Tennessee

    Pro pro trick: Delete the cookie.
     
  24. MNAle

    MNAle Champion (830) Sep 6, 2011 Minnesota

    Some of them do a pretty good job of protecting against that. Others not so much.
     
  25. jesskidden

    jesskidden Meyvn (1,278) Aug 10, 2005 New Jersey
    Subscriber

    The tried that...
    [​IMG]
    The reaction wasn't what they expected and they quickly deleted it, circa 2012 during the "Craft vs Crafty" controversy (see Schell's Jace Marti's rebuttal and 9 pages of discussion followed here on BA.

    Obviously dates from before they changed their "craft" definition to cover the pre-craft era brewers who still did a significant percentage of their barrelage in adjunct lagers. In fact, that opposition to publishing that so-called "Blacklist" was in part responsible for that change.
     
    LuskusDelph, jmdrpi, Ranbot and 4 others like this.
  26. Haybeerman

    Haybeerman Poo-Bah (2,236) May 21, 2008 Colorado
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    ...but the above is still based on the same moving targets - volume threshold, independent and traditional. Transperent I guess since it's obvious what they're trying to do.
     
  27. drtth

    drtth Poo-Bah (3,196) Nov 25, 2007 Pennsylvania

    Of course it's based on moving targets. It had better be.

    What other choice is there for a professional organization that represents, but does not command, the interests of its membership in a dynamic and changing world.

    Public tastes have been changing, the dynamics of the marketplace have been changing, etc. etc. Failure to adapt to such a dynamic and fluid environment would be a disservice to their membership and those they represent.
     
  28. jesskidden

    jesskidden Meyvn (1,278) Aug 10, 2005 New Jersey
    Subscriber

    A little:
     
    LuskusDelph likes this.
  29. nc41

    nc41 Meyvn (1,466) Sep 25, 2008 North Carolina
    Beer Trader

    I don't really drink much SA beer, I really stopped thinking of them as a craft beer producer years ago. IMO they just pump out one mediocre beer after another. If their beer was better I'd drink it more often no matter how many barrels they pumped out. I've said it before they make way to many styles of beer to do them all well, they benefit from pulling back and doing a smaller number very well. Cherry Wheat? Yuck.
     
    CommanderKeen and Haybeerman like this.
  30. Haybeerman

    Haybeerman Poo-Bah (2,236) May 21, 2008 Colorado
    Supporter Subscriber Beer Trader

    Exactly the point thank you...if you didn't have the arbitrary targets, nothing to adapt
     
  31. drtth

    drtth Poo-Bah (3,196) Nov 25, 2007 Pennsylvania

    But the targets are not arbitrary from the perspective of the BA, just moving.

    Also if a professional organization does not have targets that are tied to the interests of their membership they are worthless. Clearly the bulk of the BA membership do not consider the organization that currently represents them to be worthless, otherwise there would be no membership for the BA to represent.
     
  32. lordofthemark

    lordofthemark Aspirant (290) Jan 28, 2015 Virginia

    But what do they know? They are just the owners of craft breweries, including most of the people who created the craft beer revolution , not like the beer experts we have here.
     
    rgordon, ivegot3Dvision and drtth like this.
  33. lordofthemark

    lordofthemark Aspirant (290) Jan 28, 2015 Virginia

    Better to say what they are FOR, than what they are against.
     
    LuskusDelph likes this.
  34. lordofthemark

    lordofthemark Aspirant (290) Jan 28, 2015 Virginia

    Not sure what you mean by being dependent on the view of an industry association. Of course they are not dependent on the BA definition. But they, the BA members, belong to BA, and choose to define their criteria in certain ways.
     
  35. lordofthemark

    lordofthemark Aspirant (290) Jan 28, 2015 Virginia

    As far as I can tell the greater concern is having Jim Koch participate on their board, etc, not manipulating volume numbers to show growth. Do you have evidence otherwise?
     
  36. JackHorzempa

    JackHorzempa Poo-Bah (3,016) Dec 15, 2005 Pennsylvania
    Supporter

    Simply stating an opinion based upon past actions by the Brewers Association.

    Do you have evidence that the motivation by Brewers Association is to keep Jim Koch on the board, etc.?

    Cheers!
     
  37. lordofthemark

    lordofthemark Aspirant (290) Jan 28, 2015 Virginia

    BBC pushes for growth of Twisted Tea, not the FMB segment. Of Angry Orchard, not the cider segment. I am not sure what pushing for growth of the cider segment as such would even look like. Are there cider specific tax or distro issues? Is it that they would share hops with small craft cideries? I would hope BA would not have a problem with that.
     
  38. MNAle

    MNAle Champion (830) Sep 6, 2011 Minnesota

    I've posted this idea before, but it has been awhile, so here goes again...

    The BA is a trade organization, representing their members before various government bodies and performing other services (such as marketing, statistics gathering and publishing, etc.) that benefit their members. (And, by "members" I do not mean anyone who pays dues; I mean those members they are actually representing.)

    Their definition of "craft brewer" is, in the final analysis, then, a definition of the members they are representing. It does not define a market segment (if it did, it would also include Blue Moon and Lagunitas, to name two examples).

    As the members they represent evolve, the BA must also evolve or else cease to be a benefit to their members.

    A large number of people here on the BA forums (BeerAdvocate, not Brewers Association) confuse the BA's (Brewers Association's) definition to mean things it does not mean and will never mean. It is, at its foundation, a political definition.
     
  39. lordofthemark

    lordofthemark Aspirant (290) Jan 28, 2015 Virginia


    Yes. 1. It was mentioned as a concern in the article. 2. In the past they have excluded some traditional breweries based on use of certain ingredients. They changed under pressure from people claiming this was unfair. Had they been interested in goosing their numbers, they could have done that earlier.
     
    LuskusDelph likes this.
  40. surfcaster

    surfcaster Zealot (520) Apr 20, 2013 North Carolina
    Beer Trader

    Dues are prorated based on production. I tried to calculate what that would be for 6M barrels but it wouldn't answer.


    It seems that the B.A. would have great interest in retaining Mr. Koch .
     
    LuskusDelph likes this.
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