When did quoting secondary become acceptable trade etiquette?

Discussion in 'Trade Talk' started by Leftofthedial, Oct 31, 2017.

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  1. Beer_Economicus

    Beer_Economicus Savant (958) Apr 8, 2017 Ohio
    Trader

    What's interesting to me is that the response of anyone missing out on something like this is "pissed off." My emotions for these type of things are always sorrowful - i.e. sad that I did not get to try it, but not "WHY DIDN'T I GET IT!? grrrrrrrrrrrrr:angry::angry::angry::angry::angry:" Very interesting. Maybe I don't take beer seriously enough.
     
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  2. dogleg_left

    dogleg_left Initiate (185) May 12, 2016 North Carolina
    Trader

    Couldn't agree more, but I was referring to the odd vibe of the crowd at Alluvial when I visited. I really don't care if I miss out on a beer, I'm far too ADHD. I've been lucky to have an opportunity to travel to several breweries across the country and the vibe is universally inviting everywhere that I've visited. Maybe I caught the wrong group of locals at Alluvial, I might have been wearing the wrong colors, but the vibe was not inviting at all. Probably just an off night.
     
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  3. hoptheology

    hoptheology Poo-Bah (5,925) May 12, 2014 California
    Society Trader

    The entitlement attitude nowadays is out of control. Not just in the beer scene. But it's probably also what's wrong with secondary quotes in trades. "I drove this far for you so you owe me this much". "I stood in line so it's worth x amount". I mean dude, if you're not going to get the beer in the first place yourself, why trip end over end trying to get it for someone else unless you're just being a good trader? If it bothers ya that much just say you can't get it.

    I had my parents pick up some BBA Paradise in my home state for a fellow trader and will eventually have to travel up there to grab it and reimburse, but I'm not going to calculate my time, effort, gas money, etc into it. Especially because I know this trader would do the same for me. And I'm getting to see my 'rents. Besides, it's a damn good beer anyways so if all falls through then I'll be happy to enjoy it myself.

    SMDH sometimes! :confused:

    P.S. and the whole taking beer "seriously enough" stuff. Beer is great, but it's meant for enjoyment. If it's a person's whole life, then they have a sad life and are probably a snobby jerk with zero friends. I'll share a Bourbon County Rare with good beer drinking friends before I'll share it at a snobby beer share - because frankly, it's more enjoyable that way!
     
  4. hoptheology

    hoptheology Poo-Bah (5,925) May 12, 2014 California
    Society Trader

    I've never been to Alluvial, but sadly it probably was a normal night. People are just too angry and upset these days.
     
  5. swenny916

    swenny916 Crusader (721) Jan 3, 2010 Illinois
    Society Trader

    I've left all but one Facebook beer groups for the same reason. People would post pictures of beer they got on a fun trip and all it would be is mocking, telling them how easy it is to get that beer, or saying how bad it is. I'm not a big safe space guy, but let people enjoy something that's not hurting anyone else.
     
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  6. hoptheology

    hoptheology Poo-Bah (5,925) May 12, 2014 California
    Society Trader

    For real though. That's so childish. I've seen it happen too. Like you said, best thing is to leave the groups that harbor that kind of garbage. Life is too short to be an asshole. That's pretty much what it boils down to for me.
     
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  7. Yabu

    Yabu Disciple (308) Feb 4, 2015 California
    Trader

    You make an excellent point! Beer, Bourbon, toys, antiques, clothes - many buy low and sell high - Business is the way of life.

    Everyone knows it's illegal to sell alcohol, and it's also illegal to ship beer. So what's the difference? Don't be a hypocrite!


    BTW, this thread is good comedy! Especially those that are complaining, good stuff.

    I say Let everyone trade, hoard, buy,sell , drink and drain pour whatever they want. No reason to criticize others. Don't want to deal with those people? Don't. Move on.

    I saw people post the reselling their tickets of Firestone Walker Invitational 2018 within minutes of getting them. Clearly they bought it to make profit. Who cares? It is what it is. Pity the fool that buys it? That's about it, but I can't fault a guy who spends his money on whatever he wants.

    I love that the majority of bottle releases in So-Cal are online. I don't have time to stand in line for ipa's like monkish, but I'm not angry for those that do. Let them sell one of their 4packs for $80. I don't think Monkish really cares.
     
  8. eppie82

    eppie82 Poo-Bah (1,780) Apr 19, 2015 Illinois
    Society Trader

    Spoken like a true profiteer and win-the-trade at all cost individual. Thank you. Makes it very easy to add another individual to my do-not-trade with list.

    By the way, take your own advice and don’t be a hypocrite. You’re among the biggest Bottle Logic trade value defenders out there. As you stated, ‘let them trade ... whatever they want. No reason to critize others.’
     
  9. Yabu

    Yabu Disciple (308) Feb 4, 2015 California
    Trader


    Actually, I have regular trading partners (it's the best way) on BA and they love me. Sorry to disappoint you!

    At this point, I'm not interested in a new trading partner.
     
  10. hoptheology

    hoptheology Poo-Bah (5,925) May 12, 2014 California
    Society Trader


    I don't even know where to start for a reply with this.

    So I'll sum this up. This is pure crap.
     
  11. Chadzero

    Chadzero Initiate (39) Dec 20, 2008 Texas

    I see a correlation between the rise of Facebook trade groups and people claiming secondary values with the demise of commenting on BA FT:ISO posts and reddit trading. Maybe it was two stages, but moreso than ever, people are claiming astronomical secondary values on beer that doesn't deserve it.
     
  12. Beer_Economicus

    Beer_Economicus Savant (958) Apr 8, 2017 Ohio
    Trader

    I'll be honest (again!): while I don't like secondary values, specifically for everyday trades, I can "get" that for some big-ticket items it isn't a way to gauge value. What has turned me off so much is when this behavior leads to "winning," and trying to always get that secondary value rather than coming to an agreement of something "fair." (Ie one party might see their bottle as being $150 secondary, while the other's is $130, and they just have to have a plus that is in the $50 range to make up for the $20 AND the fact that they are trading up!)

    Alas, i'm not trying to rehash anything, I have something else to contribute:

    If this must be the new norm for big bottles, I actually wish there was a centralized location that held completed trades. It seems like what people quote a bottle at, if I google it, I can never find that price. I am obviously not hip to secondary, so I have no idea where to look beyond google, but that sure obfuscates any type of valuation process. This came up pretty recently (1-2 months ago?) on a maman thread I commented on, where someone was offering 50-70% of the value, I tried to helpfully indicate this, it became an argument with like 40 replies, and people started discussing/arguing where you should be looking for secondary values and who was "right."

    Without everyone having the same/complete information, it makes me difficult/frustrating and seems to exacerbate the "winning" problem for some people.
     
  13. capnmike

    capnmike Aspirant (213) Dec 6, 2013 Illinois
    Trader

    How do I know which extras to send in a precisely-calculated efficient-market trade?
     
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  14. jonphisher

    jonphisher Poo-Bah (1,526) Aug 9, 2015 New Jersey
    Society Trader

    Secondary value is crap...$4$ is all that matters. I'm waiting till I need beer but I love trading highly sought after beer for other people's shelfies that I can't get.

    You have a beer I want I have a beer you want, isn't that what trading should be...
     
  15. Squire

    Squire Poo-Bah (2,803) Jul 16, 2015 Mississippi
    Society Trader

    It is for me.
     
  16. cmukid87

    cmukid87 Disciple (349) Jan 30, 2017 Michigan
    Trader

    Double IPA can selling for upwards of $80...what a time to be alive!
     
  17. JFresh21

    JFresh21 Disciple (349) Mar 6, 2012 Illinois
    Trader

    I only see people quoting secondary on FB. I think it's lame and don't trade with those people.

    Since there's a lot of money to be made on rare beers it will bring opportunists. People can stand in line for beer for 20 hours and make more than they would working for 40. Does it rub me the wrong way? Yeah. Do I understand why people do it? Yeah.
     
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  18. Toferg

    Toferg Initiate (20) May 15, 2017 Indiana

    It's frustrating when a trade seems real simple and should be straight forward bottle for bottle to you while the other guy insists on the higher end of secondary for their bottles but lower end for yours and insists they're just trying to be fair, or that some of the bottles they can do $4$ but the ones you're talking about they have to use secondary because it's their last one. No thanks, not dealing with you anymore.
    Not having a reliable source for secondary is hard as well. Different values for trade vs. selling vs. razzles...
    I've noticed there are certain regions that are worse in my experience so far, but it happens everywhere really, especially for certain bottles.
     
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  19. GonzoHomebrewer

    GonzoHomebrewer Devotee (496) Sep 15, 2012 Massachusetts
    Trader

    Secondary sites are too easily manipulated to be trusted. Way too easy to just sign up for multiple accounts and artificially inflate prices by selling to yourself.
     
  20. Browntown35

    Browntown35 Initiate (87) Dec 24, 2016 Minnesota

    The quality of a product and other factors determine a secondary cost on everything. Sometimes it's higher and sometimes lower than the original selling price. This has been standard practice for longer than beer has been around.
    After a couple years of trading I have met awesome traders that I stay very close to $4$ with. A few traders we don't even keep track of cost anymore. I have never sold a beer but have stood in many lines with no intention of drinking said release.
    I say to each their own. Most shitty people I have encountered in the beer world are exactly that, just shitty people. No one here is going to fix them no matter the secondary price.
     
  21. Vidblain

    Vidblain Savant (958) Feb 17, 2017 Minnesota
    Trader

    I certainly will not disagree - though you did insist that we trade cash for cash, in the one and only trade that we completed. That was one of my first trades, and a trade I regret a lot, by the way (for context: your Upland strawberry for my three barrel-aged Expeditions), and one that nearly convinced me to quit trading entirely. It was an object lesson though, so I appreciate it in that way.

    I see the value in trading both cash for cash, and for secondary. I've done both. What I would like to see is some consistency among traders. Don't expect another trader to go cash for cash with you when their bottle is worth significantly more than yours, but then expect top dollar on your own rare releases. The double standards have to stop. I love seeing those posts called out, because they truly should be.

    A little more transparency in trades would be nice, too. This is one of things that I've grown to prefer about Facebook trading - offers and negotiations are right out there for all to see... but then again, so is the thread-shitting. At least that's good for a laugh, eh.
     
  22. Browntown35

    Browntown35 Initiate (87) Dec 24, 2016 Minnesota

    Go back and read our conversation. My exact words were "I usually like to stay close to $4$". How is that insisting? You posted the trade, suggested the exact trade we made and when I told you not to include extras, you still did.
    I won't disagree I definelty got the better end of that trade, but did not realize that at the time.
    I still have two of those expos if you want to share one sometime.

    Cheers
     
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  23. cmukid87

    cmukid87 Disciple (349) Jan 30, 2017 Michigan
    Trader

    This, exactly. It has happened so many times that I don't even get mad anymore. My secondary to your retail but they also want to go retail $4$ for your high secondary.

    At least it has helped me weed out bad traders.
     
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  24. Vidblain

    Vidblain Savant (958) Feb 17, 2017 Minnesota
    Trader

    I left that conversation a very long time ago. :slight_smile: The small details of phrasing - though I don't recall that implied flexibility. I didn't mention a thing about extras in the above post, by the way - but I'm glad that you did remember. I prefer to err on the side of generosity with extras, and find it's generally appreciated and returned.

    The offer is appreciated. It's done. As noted - it was a good object lesson.
     
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  25. putonyourwalkingshoes

    putonyourwalkingshoes Devotee (471) Jul 31, 2013 California
    Trader

    Everyone agrees with you except for people from Missouri, Iowa, and people close to j Wakefield.
     
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  26. cmukid87

    cmukid87 Disciple (349) Jan 30, 2017 Michigan
    Trader

    Let's not forget those near a certain brewery in Massachusetts 1-2 times per month.
     
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  27. PA-Michigander

    PA-Michigander Poo-Bah (1,807) Nov 10, 2013 Pennsylvania
    Society Trader

    One of my favorite traders. Good on you!
     
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  28. Vidblain

    Vidblain Savant (958) Feb 17, 2017 Minnesota
    Trader

    Cheers, Nick - you're a good man!
     
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  29. Bunuelian

    Bunuelian Champion (841) Mar 22, 2013 Minnesota
    Trader

  30. Vidblain

    Vidblain Savant (958) Feb 17, 2017 Minnesota
    Trader

    There's room for one more, Mike! Bring some of that coconut cinnamon BCBS, please and thanks!
     
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  31. PA-Michigander

    PA-Michigander Poo-Bah (1,807) Nov 10, 2013 Pennsylvania
    Society Trader

    I bought the last room, next one is on him!
     
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  32. Devman171

    Devman171 Defender (619) May 16, 2013 Maryland
    Trader

    In
     
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  33. Thirst_trappist

    Thirst_trappist Disciple (357) Jan 18, 2016 Florida
    Trader

    This is so spot on....thread should be closed after this haha
     
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  34. Thirst_trappist

    Thirst_trappist Disciple (357) Jan 18, 2016 Florida
    Trader

    Internet search name of beer and price /for sale...
     
  35. Beer_Economicus

    Beer_Economicus Savant (958) Apr 8, 2017 Ohio
    Trader

    I've done this after reading some comments in the ISO: Limited subforum, and people are definitely quoting values that don't appear on beerblackbook, my beer cellar, my beer collectibles. And I have no earthly idea where they are coming from. Those are the only 3 I have ever heard of for any reference.

    Also, I've also seen people do the "Pawn stars thing":

    "How much do you want for this?"
    "Well, I've seen them go for 300"
    "Yea...but that's not sold, that's just for sale."
    "Well, I've seen them go for 300"
    "..."

    Because I've been trying to track down a couple bottles of whiskey for my Dad, and whiskey people are typically more into secondary than beer, I've been trying to get an idea what some people might value a few beers at, so that I can try to be knowledgeable when I finally try to land a couple of these whiskeys. - And, I haven't really made any progress.
     
  36. Bum4ever

    Bum4ever Defender (649) Jan 18, 2017 California
    Trader

    There are a bunch of Facebook groups that discuss secondary. That is were I usually look if I need to know the current value of something.
     
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  37. Thirst_trappist

    Thirst_trappist Disciple (357) Jan 18, 2016 Florida
    Trader

    IdI guess sold items on either MBC would be a good way to get a hold of value you might need to start discussing whiskey trades. Just imo
     
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