Wolves & People

Discussion in 'Northwest' started by JordanBrewer, Oct 23, 2014.

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  1. JordanBrewer

    JordanBrewer Initiate (0) Mar 4, 2014 Oregon

    So this just happened: https://crowdbrewed.com/rewards/wolves

    Wolves & People Farmhouse Brewery
    • [​IMG]What is Wolves & People?
      Wolves & People is a new farmhouse brewery under construction in the heart of Oregon’s wine country, just 21 miles outside of Portland. Dubbed by beer industry watchdogs as “the most anticipated brewery opening of 2015”, it’s an exciting project for beer lovers in Oregon and beyond. First things first. What’s with the name? It comes from of a nighttime game of tag my brothers and cousins played at night as kids growing up here on Springbrook Farm. (Start with a lone “wolf”. The “people” have to get across the yard and back without getting tagged by the wolf. Last person to get tagged is the winner. But it’s really fun to be a wolf, too.) OK, we get nerdier! Ancient Romans called hops the “little wolf among weeds” (because they’re so fast-growing). We’re going to focus on saisons, wild ales, and other experimental styles using indigenous yeasts already harvested here on the farm that make for tart, complex, delicious beers. I also love the fact that Oregon’s earliest pioneers gathered for the “wolf meetings” just a couple of miles from this farm and soon founded the state. It wasn’t long after that when a Bavarian named Sebastian Brutscher settled on this land and grew wheat, oats, and hops. Hmm, what’s in that kettle Sebastian?

      Brewing & Operations
      [​IMG]Wolves & People was founded by me, Portland, Oregon native Christian DeBenedetti. As a professional beer and travel writer since 1998, my background includes years of homebrewing, a year of brewing research in Europe on a postgraduate grant, stints working in production in breweries, wineries, and a cooperage, over 200 national magazine articles and two books (The Great American Ale Trail, and a new cookbook to be released in 2015), a 55,000-person strong email list (WeeklyPint.com), and a role in successful product design (as co-founder of The Bräuler – Zythos Project). I live, love, and breathe craft beer! Especially sour beer.

      Consulting Head Brewer
      I’m pumped to report that brewer Jordan Keeper, formerly of Jester King outside of Austin, Texas has joined the effort, and has just moved to Oregon. We’ve spent the last two weeks wresting with wastewater pumps, cutting the concrete slab apart for our new floor drains, and daydreaming about all the beer to come. I am thrilled to be working with Jordan, whose talents are renowned. We can’t wait to get started working and already have some 20 recipes in development. Your generosity ensures we can get him rolling as soon as possible realizing all our wild ideas.[​IMG]


      Shelton Bros., of Belchertown, Massachusetts, will be helping distribute our out-of-state beers. So if you don’t live in Oregon, but you do live close to a good beer bar or bottle shop, you’ll have a chance to drink our beer. Led by my old friend Dan Shelton, who I met at Belgium’s Cantillon brewery back in 1997, Shelton Bros. is known for being the home of the best small and artisanal breweries around the world. We will become one of fewer than 10 American breweries in their ranks, joining Upright, Jolly Pumpkin, Anchorage Brewing Co., and Prairie Artisan Ales, among others. While most Wolves & People beers will be sold from our tasting room for the local Oregon market, being invited into Shelton Bros. distribution family means our beer will be available around the world.

      [​IMG]I bought a used commercial sink from a contractor who said to me “hmm, Wolves & People… interesting name for a brewery—most of us will fit right in!” We think there’s a lot of potential for all the brewery’s artwork to be fun, and original, and to evolve over time as we collaborate with artists and creative minds. I’m working with way-hipper-than-me designers in PDX to create the brand’s identity. One standout talent already on board is Jason Sturgill, who designed our logo (above) using an old Belgian typeface. He’s also worked with the likes of Widmer Bros. and rock bands like Modest Mouse and Portugal The Man (see his awesome T-shirt work below).

      Collab with The Commons

      The award-winning Commons Brewery in Portland, Oregon has been a huge supporter, including working with us on collaboration beers using their beer and our farm fruit from plums to apples (we also grow figs, pears, and too many other things to list). We recently tasted three such brews that have been aging for a year in oak (sour green apples and plums from our farm; pinot noir from our friends at J.K. Carriere winery). The results: funky miracle! Expect to taste a blend of that beer at our Portland launch party, date TBD in November. Many friends have expressed their excitement to come brew on the farm, including brewers from Boulevard, Evil Twin, Social Kitchen, Roadhouse, The Bruery, and others. We truly envision Wolves & People as a meeting place for beer brains like us, and plan to help nurture the local beer and home brewing scenes however we can. We especially look forward to welcoming visitors during the Craft Brewers Conference in Portland, OR in April 2015.

      Beers in Planning
      Our Wolves & People beers will focus on an ever-evolving, seasonally-driven cast of farmhouse styles for one main reason: they are quite literally brewed on a farm! We don’t know exactly what we will brew first! Or when the blackberries will peak! But some of our beers in planning include:

      Coup de Foudre: Meaning “lightning bolt,” or “love at first sight”, a wild golden ale fermented in foudres in the barn and seductively dry-hopped.

      Sebastian: Dry-hopped saison made with estate yeast “Sebastian”, harvested from our oldest plum tree and aged in pinot barrels for at least 4 months. Later versions will transform with farm fruit additions.

      Lupercal: Meaning “she-wolf”, this is a refreshing, complex, spruce-tip infused wild ale with fresh lemon peel, subject to a mixed fermentation with Brettanomyces, Lactobacillus, and our house wild yeast, Sebastian.

      Brutaal: Brutaal, meaning “bold” or “audacious” in Dutch is our homage to De Ranke’s XX Bitter, which is itself a tribute to the original character of Orval, the Belgian pale ale that first captured our founder’s imagination and inspired his love for Brettanomycesbeers.

      Corylus: Imperial hazelnut stout with Magnum, Columbus, and Mosaic hops aged on estate hazelnuts in a mix of bourbon, port, and sherry barrels; approx 11-12%abv.

      Landbouw: Meaning “farming” or “agriculture”, this is a dry-hopped, harvest beer based on grisette with a sociably low ABV of around 2.8% ABV.


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  2. Phobicsquirrel

    Phobicsquirrel Initiate (0) Oct 1, 2013 Oregon

  3. TheeWalrusHunter

    TheeWalrusHunter Initiate (0) Aug 23, 2013 Oregon

    Withholding excitement - still trying to figure out how I feel. Will report said feelings back later.
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  4. BBThunderbolt

    BBThunderbolt Poo-Bah (7,996) Sep 24, 2007 Kiribati
    Society Trader

    My emotions:

    Brewery opening and making interesting beers:slight_smile:

    Brewery being distributed by Sheltons:slight_frown:
  5. TheeWalrusHunter

    TheeWalrusHunter Initiate (0) Aug 23, 2013 Oregon

    I had a similar feeling, but I am trying to decipher why being distributed by Sheltons turns me off (maybe it makes me thing they aren't committed to the local market... i don't know, thats a a stupid thought). I am coming to the conclusion my feelings toward that aspect are unfounded and I need to just be happy that this brewery exists in Oregon.

    So good for them. I wish I could afford the $350 price tag of a 12 bottle (6 variant) membership. But I have no doubt that there are easily 75 people that are going to happily pay that and feel like they received a ton of value for it. So thats more on my wallet than on the brewery.

    Cheers to new beer.
  6. Kurmaraja

    Kurmaraja Initiate (0) May 21, 2013 California

    I'm mostly wildly enthusiastic ... as much as you can be for a place that hasn't brewed a beer I can taste yet.

    But I have to agree that bottle prices seem high. Collaborating with Commons and their Trillium sour was $15? Let's say the glasses are $10 each we're looking at $27.50 a bottle ... with some of those bottles being a grisette? Granted, some of that is "getting in on the ground floor" since it looks like the membership price drops next year to $315. We're in Ale Apothecary territory on price ... I guess if we're there on quality too, I'll keep my mouth shut.

    I do find it interesting that there's an imperial stout listed. Wondering if that will be "wild" / mixed fermentation as well?
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  7. BBThunderbolt

    BBThunderbolt Poo-Bah (7,996) Sep 24, 2007 Kiribati
    Society Trader

    "why being distributed by Sheltons turns me off"

    Because they don't give a crap about Washington? They'll send their scraps out, if they can find the time, but I think they get the rights to a lot of brands, just to keep another distributor from grabbing them, and then not sending any out.
  8. Strangestbrewer

    Strangestbrewer Initiate (0) Oct 17, 2014 Oregon

    Is it just me or does 60k seem a little steep, even for a hyped brewery?

    Also Sheltons: Why... Well I know why but still... why?

    Edit: Though I guess they got five grand in one day, so what do I know.
    #8 Strangestbrewer, Oct 23, 2014
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2014
  9. distantmantra

    distantmantra Meyvn (1,102) May 23, 2011 Washington

    Upright is distributed by Shelton? Huh. They must self-distribute here in WA cause we actually get their stuff consistently...
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  10. anteater

    anteater Initiate (0) Sep 10, 2012 Oregon

    So the membership is about $27.50 a bottle... I find it interesting then that the $75 pledge includes "one 750ml bottle under $20 to go". I wish there was a little more transparency about bottle price/availability, i.e. will those beers just end up being available to go anyway at a later date and at what price? Or will it be more along the lines of a de Garde keeper's membership where signing up is the only way you can get those beers?
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  11. kscaldef

    kscaldef Initiate (0) Jun 11, 2010 Oregon

    Stop asking questions and give them your money. The are “the most anticipated brewery opening of 2015”. The next Hill Farmstead. Walez bro!
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  12. distantmantra

    distantmantra Meyvn (1,102) May 23, 2011 Washington

    Some of their PR/website came as off as really pretentious, but I'd like to give them the benefit of the doubt.

    If I'm at the brewery.

    Or if their stuff actually makes it to Washington. Seems like Shelton is cutting us off again. Haven't seen anything from Prairie, 3F or Cantillon in ages.
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  13. Kurmaraja

    Kurmaraja Initiate (0) May 21, 2013 California

    Agree on transparency. Given the folks involved I made the decision to be generous and hope that decisions will be made that guarantee those that lend support early feel there's value in it. If it turns out that I'm paying retail price for standard release beers available to the public and all I'm getting on top of that is a 15% discount and a couple glasses, I'd be disappointed. Not angry; but disappointed. Now, if the beers are amazing I'll drown that disappointment in funky farmhouse beer.

    Perhaps there will be events with exclusive beers, perhaps the beers will be exclusive to club members, perhaps you'll get first crack at buying more, etc. There are a lot of ways to make supporters feel appreciated and part of a community.

    And as for the comment that the press comes off as pretentious, I can see that. But I'm frequently accused of pretension and it's really just my passion, enthusiasm, and unrepentent geekery coming through. I think you can also just read it as folks that are incredibly excited about their project and want to share a lot of info. Personally, the more info they share, the better I feel about giving them my money.
  14. grrrah

    grrrah Initiate (0) Sep 21, 2009 California

    Take my money!

    Yeah the initial marketing seemed pretentious, but did nail all the cliche'd things we snobs often look for. The crowd brewed page seems earnest that they are trying to raise money for some stuff a business would typically get a business loan for, but nice way to stay away from that approach. If it were $250 we'd probably say it's a good deal. So I look at it as kicking $100 toward helping them start.

    Only thing that bothers me is the Shelton Bros. Being down in CA, I'll probably benefit from this, but I tend to like the DeGarde/SARA mode of serving locals first if they can keep up with the supply. Them potentially shipping (though I plan to make 1-2 road trips) is what pushed me over the top.

    From the pricing and descriptions, it seems like they are going a common route with $30 special/member bottles, and will also have some <$20 base beer bottles (hopefully the Shelton bottles).
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  15. Kurmaraja

    Kurmaraja Initiate (0) May 21, 2013 California

    And did anyone notice that they said they got their brewhouse from Heater Allen. Wonder what this means for Heater Allen ... expansion?
  16. dirtylou

    dirtylou Poo-Bah (3,687) May 12, 2005 New York
    Society Trader

    Shelton is a definite turnoff, but the project sounds interesting enough. Any company that can raise capital like this with such minimal cost might as well. I'm sure they'll be fully funded rather quickly given the way this scene operates these days.
  17. kscaldef

    kscaldef Initiate (0) Jun 11, 2010 Oregon

    To be honest, I view this as something of a red flag. A bank or a true investor in the business expects to do a certain amount of due diligence before handing over their money. They expect to see a full business plan. They will require collateral and may specify recourse clauses or a liquidation preference. If the business does not deliver on its promises, they have legal rights in the matter. But, in the crowdfunding approach, if something goes pear-shaped, the supporters are SOL.
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  18. Gobigvt7

    Gobigvt7 Initiate (0) Mar 15, 2008 Oregon

    HA already expanded, this was their previous brewhouse.

    Yeah, the perceived Shelton negatives depend on the level of the Bros' involvement. Upright has no issues being found in the region, yet you can also find it in Boston, NYC, and DC, thanks to Shelton Bros. Being part of a portfolio like that can absolutely grow your brand, "put you on the map", which in turn leads to more beer tourism and money back to the brewery, not to mention the obvious of selling all of your beer in a timely manner.

    Crowdfunding site is specifically mentioning foudres of varying sizes, which means their goals for production amounts are already at or above where de garde is currently trying to go (and way, way, way more than Ale Apoth), which means there is going to be a lot of beer to have to move, via the taproom, members, and distribution. With the number of memberships open and the amount of time it'll take to get any measure of a real barrel/foudre program going, i'm guessing there will be very little beer for at least the first year and Shelton Bros won't even come into play until later, aside from providing an "in" for collaborating with a lot of breweries under their umbrella, which I count as a win for all of us.
  19. grrrah

    grrrah Initiate (0) Sep 21, 2009 California

    I don't disagree. I wouldn't call it a red flag though, but instead an individual risk that could cost us $350 each. It's definately an alternative to the typical business loan. Having reputable people and decent marketing material helps their cause. Look at the other breweries on the crowdbrewed page and none of them are close to raising the same amount of funds.

    Don't get me wrong, I usually roll my eyes at most crowd funding ideas, but this one seems worth the risk. But if it's a red flag to you, no problem and I bet you aren't the only one.
  20. vurt

    vurt Meyvn (1,309) Apr 11, 2004 Oregon

    I am looking forward to trying their beers. I will not be kicking in $350 for an "Inaugural Cellar Society Membership" because that, to me, is too damn much money to throw blindly at a brewery whose beers I've never tried. Also, phrases designed to induce FOMO (like "Due to the extreme scarcity of our beers...") tend to turn me off.
  21. John_M

    John_M Poo-Bah (6,836) Oct 25, 2003 Oregon
    Moderator Society Trader

    +1 to this. That was exactly my reaction as well.

    Also, the phrase "due to the extreme scarcity of our beers" seems inconsistent with the selection of a national distributor like Shelton Brothers. If the beers are going to be that scarce, then why not focus on the local and regional market before aiming at a national distribution niche?
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  22. fsck

    fsck Initiate (0) Apr 13, 2013 Washington

    If the beers live up to the hype everything will be great, and if not there is plenty of room for criticism. But the possible criticisms seem to be more the norm (crowd funding, expensive clubs) that I can't really blame anyone from trying to take advantage of it. Splitting this membership as 6 bottles for $175 seems a little more reasonable.
  23. fsck

    fsck Initiate (0) Apr 13, 2013 Washington

    I would hope that they will be doing big batch base beers and the membership includes the smaller single barrel type stuff. But again they left off a lot of important details like that.
  24. John_M

    John_M Poo-Bah (6,836) Oct 25, 2003 Oregon
    Moderator Society Trader

    At least to me, this just seems like a considerable expenditure for a beer (or beers) I'm buying completely sight unseen. Also, I now live in a world where good beer is pretty much everywhere, and even barrel aged wild ales are readily available. So assuming I'm interested in this venture, the brewer is asking me to take a pretty sizeable (and I would argue unnecessary) risk, just so I can get in on the ground floor of something that may turn out to be the next big thing.

    In the famous words of George Walker Bush: "Not going to do it.... wouldn't be prudent."
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  25. TheeWalrusHunter

    TheeWalrusHunter Initiate (0) Aug 23, 2013 Oregon

    God, I hate bashing breweries that haven't even opened yet, but I believe this forum is a safe place to discuss how we feel and perceive in an appropriate manner. That being said the press release seemed like they are trying to manufacture the farmhouse persona too much instead of letting it grow organically.

    It's almost like they had a checklist of what makes a WALEZ-BRO brewery and started checking them off:
    • In a literal farmhouse, notated with year built - CHECK
    • Ambiguous brewery Name - CHECK
    • Location derived wild yeast - CHECK
    • Grow Your Own Ingredients - CHECK
    • Expensive Society - CHECK
    • Coolship - semi-CHECK
    • Sour and Funk - CHECK
    Not saying any of these are bad things in themselves, it just seems.... manufactured.

    It also just gives off a different vibe than Hills Farmstead, Logsdon, de Garde, Ale Apothecary - breweries that care deeply about their local markets and the culture of the region.

    I can't imagine de Garde existing anywhere but Tilamook. I can't imagine Logsdon existing anywhere but the hills of Mt. Hood. I can't imagine Hills Farmstead existing anywhere but Vermont. I can imagine Wolves & People existing literally in any semi rural area in America. I think this thought probably stems from the national distribution from the get go.

    Anyways, we are a bunch of dicks in the PNW. Every state would be shitting themselves over getting a brewery like this, and here we are being the gate keepers of what we want to see in our area and not. We have some high standards.

    All that being said, The Commons collab was extremely good and looking forward to having the brewery prove my assumptions and perceptions wrong.
  26. distantmantra

    distantmantra Meyvn (1,102) May 23, 2011 Washington

    I think it's the national distribution right off the get-go that rubs me the wrong way. Why not hone your craft in your local market before expanding all over the place?
  27. TheeWalrusHunter

    TheeWalrusHunter Initiate (0) Aug 23, 2013 Oregon

    Well to be fair to the brewer, who i am making a very conservative assumption is @JordanBrewer - he has been honing his craft as the head brewer at Jester King - one of the more famous funk and sour producers in the country.
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  28. Gobigvt7

    Gobigvt7 Initiate (0) Mar 15, 2008 Oregon

    It may sound manufactured, but it actually is Christian's family farm. On-side Isolated/propagated wild yeast from a fruit tree sounds manufactured (but also sounds delicious) And he's been in the beer community here (and elsewhere), drinking and writing beer articles and books like The Great American Ale Trail for awhile now.

    Again, I could easily be wrong, but I interpreted the Shelton involvement in the near future to be more of like a consultant role than an actual distributor role. Everyone's business model is (and can be) different, which is one of the best things about craft beer imo.
  29. Kurmaraja

    Kurmaraja Initiate (0) May 21, 2013 California

    I imagine we'll see 95% of their beer in local markets for the foreseeable future. To me the claim about involvement with Shelton seems, to some degree, to be about establishing legitimacy which is part of people's "complaints": i.e. we're risking our money on an untested brewery. Sounds to me like people are making some contradictory arguments: we don't like that you're aligning yourself (probably really tenuously at this point) with an established player known for representing best of breed breweries ... but we also don't like that you're unproven and asking for money.

    At this point, the Shelton thing is largely moot. But I totally understand why you would put yourself in their company when you're trying to get off the ground and ask people to trust you.

    And for all the complaints about how Shelton treats the Northwest ... I actually DO see a lot of their beers in our markets: Achel, Thiriez, Brouwerij West, Cambridge, De Molen, Ellezelloise, Freigeist, Grassroots, Jolly Pumpkin, Nogne, To Ol, Haandybryggereit, etc. We're basically bitching that we don't get enough Drie or Cantillon and ignoring the rest of their pretty great portfolio.

    Finally - a question: does anyone know how these arrangements with a distributor work? Is there a financial component that may explain why you would sign up with one long before you have any beer to give them?
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  30. maltmaster420

    maltmaster420 Initiate (0) Aug 17, 2005 Oregon

    It's not uncommon for distributors to throw large sums of money at a brewery as a "signing bonus", especially if they are (or are expected to be) a hot commodity.
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  31. ArdyExfor

    ArdyExfor Initiate (0) Nov 8, 2013 Oregon

    While I definitely see my $350 contribution as a gamble, I'm also not going to risk not getting in now. Still kicking myself for not having joined the Ale Apothecary and De Garde memberships from the get go. Although, between the three I'm now at about $1000/year in brewery memberships...
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  32. grrrah

    grrrah Initiate (0) Sep 21, 2009 California

    I don't think your assumptions are/would be wrong at all. You hit the nail. Now it's up to people to throw their money at it without tasting anything. I think this is a safer gamble than the Bruery membership from this year :wink:
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  33. kscaldef

    kscaldef Initiate (0) Jun 11, 2010 Oregon

    Except that de Garde had 4 or 5 months of beers being distributed to Portland before the Keepers memberships went on sale, and Ale Apothecary was still accepting members... I don't know... a year, year and a half after their first releases?
  34. Snowshoes

    Snowshoes Initiate (0) Sep 30, 2014 Pennsylvania

    Not trying to be a dick, but I wonder what people think it means to do a kickstarter? The prices of the beer aren't designed to reflect the cost of just the beer. They want to put their beer in front of you while having enough to cover the beer and make capital improvements. Most of the items in available for purchase in the kickstarter are all at prices that I think most here would agree represent a reach in value. This is a fund raiser, not your typical garden variety sale of product. I think folks view of this is perhaps just a bit skewed. Now...if the prices of their beers are the same going forward, perhaps we can revisit the pricing as it exists now. We'll have plenty of time to assess whether we got what we paid for or not. In the meantime, lets pretend these guys are attempting to raise funds for what they're trying to accomplish.

    I would think it should be noted that this kickstarter also isn't trying to fund their operation from scratch. They have a ton in place already, which isn't typical of many kickstarters. This seems to be a fortification of something that has a backbone already. The people involved don't appear to be amateurs either. Just my 2 cents. I'm nobody, however, and I know my opinions not worth even that to anyone else.
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  35. Snowshoes

    Snowshoes Initiate (0) Sep 30, 2014 Pennsylvania

    There's no doubt that there's an element of gambling to the crowd funding approach. But what's wrong with that? Most of us have the money to spend. We're either going to spend it on this, or something off the shelf. If this place turned out to be successful, we'd be trying to spend our money here...assuming there was enough to support the demand and even provide us that opportunity. As it stands, these are a great way to both help fund a new operation out while simultaneously providing us a means with which to avoid having to hit the trade forums to try something good. Anyone that trades regularly knows how costly that gets. It's just money, guys. What the fuck are we working for anyway? I love this shit.
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  36. ArdyExfor

    ArdyExfor Initiate (0) Nov 8, 2013 Oregon

    Still doesn't change the fact that I wish I had got in and didn't. The idea of spending hundreds of dollars on brewery memberships back then was new and crazy to me though (my how that's changed). Also while it is a gamble because they have not yet established this new brewery, I think they have a lot going on for them and a good bit of potential.

    I do have to admit though, it seems pretty vague what exactly I paid for and that's where the real gamble is. Also what was the point of having a mailing list to be notified of when this type of stuff would become available and then not email anyone? These two bits of disorganization worry me a bit.
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  37. vurt

    vurt Meyvn (1,309) Apr 11, 2004 Oregon

    There's no good beer in your area, or even within driving distance? That must suck.
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  38. Snowshoes

    Snowshoes Initiate (0) Sep 30, 2014 Pennsylvania

    I didn't say that. You did.

    I didn't state that I can't get anything good here. But I like variety, and I enjoy getting to try all the good beers. I can buy a nice steak at Whole Foods and grill it myself...but that doesn't mean I don't also enjoy getting a nice steak out at Sullivan's, Morton's, or the Capital Grill on occasion.
  39. BBThunderbolt

    BBThunderbolt Poo-Bah (7,996) Sep 24, 2007 Kiribati
    Society Trader

    "to avoid having to hit the trade forums to try something good", sure sounds like you're not happy with your local selection. Obviously, there's plenty of great beer all across the country these days, so most of us don't have to put a ton of effort into obtaining good beer. And, we're kinda pulling your chain a bit. But, with depth and breadth of breweries around us, forgive us if we raise an eyebrow when a newcomer makes big statements like this.
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  40. Snowshoes

    Snowshoes Initiate (0) Sep 30, 2014 Pennsylvania

    That's not it at all. I live in an area with great distribution, and I'm still an El Catador, Bruery Reserve Society, and Wakefield OG member. But there's still stuff I enjoy that's outside of SE PA's distribution channel, so I have to go about other ways of getting it. Does my desire for Cigar City, certain Bruery offerings, and Wakefield beer mean I'm unhappy with the myriad breweries we have like Tired Hands and Forest and Main? Or the breweries distributed here such as Bell's, Founders, Dark Horse, Ithaca, etc? It sure sounds like you're making assumptions just to be argumentative. I don't have to put any effort into obtaining good beer. I walk across the street to Whole Foods. I simply enjoy trying a lot of other things too. It must be embarrassing that I occasionally drive to Vermont for a weekend of VT only beer. You guys do indeed have a lot of great breweries that made a name for themselves in short order. The only difference is most of them didn't start in THIS fashion. Had they...what would you have thought of them at the time? What would you think of them in hindsidght? Do you only find this approach offensive just because you have so many other no risk options that the idea of having to take a leap of faith galls you? And I don't need to forgive you. I haven't taken offense to anything you've said. :slight_smile: I hope you haven't taken any to mine either. Just different opinions..and I'm admittedly the argumentative type.
    Kurmaraja likes this.
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