Lagers versus Ales

i like just plain bocks they have that sweet and crisp smooth i like

 

I'll try to sum up what I've gathered on this issue. There seem to be two schools of thought (on here, anyways):

-One makes the distinction between the two based on the kind of yeast is used, wherein ales use a top-fermenting strain, and lagers use a bottom fermenting strain. It's a clean, simple, scientific divide. This seems to be the most accepted definition on here.

-The other is rooted more in brewing tradition and vocabulary. A lager is defined as a beer which has undergone a period of cold conditioning (aging, if you will), regardless of whether or not the yeast used in the beer was top- or bottom-fermenting. As this process was largely German, those German beers which were not lagered (note that lagern is German for "to store"), I believe are simply referred to as beer. On the other hand, the use of the term "ale" is relegated to those beers to which the term was traditionally applied in England; part of that same tradition makes stout and porter as separate styles from ale. On here, this view seems to be held mostly by Marquis and Steveh, though increasingly, me.

Often, the two indeed often overlap just fine. A beer like Sierra Nevada Pale can rightly be called an ale on both counts, as can Pilsner Urquell be called a lager; the issues come up mostly in the likes of Kölsch and Altbier, as you may have gathered from this thread, but really these are in the minority anyways.

That said, those who are of the first school think a phrase like "top-fermented lager beer" is a contradiction of terms, and accuse those of the second to clinging to outdated vocabulary to the confusion/annoyance of everyone else. Those of the second school point out that the use of top-/bottom-fermentation as the criteria for ale/lager is a modern, American invention, and that to impose it on brewing traditions that still don't use those words that way is erroneous and/or arrogant.

 

I'm surprised this hasn't come up yet:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steam_beer

 

Bull, just tried Boston Ale for the first time the past few days and Boston Lager is a whole lot better!

I did like both though!

 

Lagers usually taste better in hot weather.

 

When you drink doppelbock or Baltic porters which are both lagers do you find that they lose a whole lot when they drift closer to room temperature?

 

At least in terms of American beer circles, the ale/lager distinction is top or bottom fermenting. Admittedly, it is neither historically nor technically accurate, but it's become colloquially accepted. Ales certainly are made with hops and all or almost all breweries subject their ales to a lagering period, even if it is only for a few days and referred to as a "cold crash" (it is at least a mini-lagering). Some ales, like biere de garde, are frequently brewed with bottom fermenting strains rather than ale strains. Baltic porters are normally, but not always, brewed with bottom fermenting strains. Even the top vs. bottom fermenting yeast distinction is not completely accurate because many "ale" yeast strains will bottom ferment at cooler temperatures (e.g. safale 04, cry havok) and some "lager" strains will create krausen.

 

That's the problem about what I said earlier of being locked into the notion that ales and top fermented beers are the same thing.That's an assumption and misunderstanding which has gained ground.It's further complicated by calling top fermenting yeast strains "ale yeast" and arguing from there.Once it's realised that ales are just one of the family of top fermenting beers and that "ale" has been hijacked and misapplied then many of the anomalies will disappear.Ron puts it better than I could, apologies for repeating this link but it explains quite well how Kolsch and Altbier are lagers; http://barclayperkins.blogspot.co.uk/2008/05/is-klsch-ale.html

As for stouts and porters being ales;

 

Two entirely different things. marquis doesnt want to let language evolve (except that isnt true, he is fine with the change in the definition of ale up until some specific point in time in which he has declared that it cant change anymore!). He might as well be french.

 

You might have to, the rest of us don't. I drink all my beers at or around the same temperature -- around 45° F.

 

Thanks for the defense, but note that I was only "wrong" based on his rules of order -- note Marquis' graphic example.

 

It also the advantage of knowing exactly what to do when people start brewing with Saccharomyces eubayanus (and you know its coming). They will be neither lagers nor ales but some new third thing!

 

Actually, no, it was wrong based on exactly what you said.

You acknowledged in your 2nd sentence that the definition had changed (at least in the US) and yet you still answered based on a previous definition. And last I checked, Illinois was in the US.

If we are discussing malt beverages in London of the 19th century, Im perfectly fine in using the other definition, because, at that time and place, that is what those words meant.

Just like if you go a few centuries further back in time, ale and beer are distinguished by the use of hops.

 

If you pay real close attention (as I can really tell you sometimes do, based on your geographical acumen), I never said I agreed with that current "opinion."

 

Poor lagers always getting discriminated against on this site.

 

So do us all a favor Marquis, and please define Lagers and Ales for us. Not a link so Ron's research but what you would consider an acceptable, concise definition of the two. Maybe you will enlighten us all and we can use your definition from here on out.

 

Jacks Abby may only brew lagers. They are an excellent brewer. I have a bottle of the
Framminghammer awaiting. It's a great beer. I had it also last year at their 1st anniversary
party-also barrel aged.

 

It's not a matter of definition as there isn't a Grand Jury out there to arbitrate.These names predate any formal criteria.Ales are specifically a family of brewing which evolved in this country and later in other countries influenced by it such as Belgium and the US.They are top (or rather warm) fermented because there never was any cause to do otherwise.Other great brewing nations of course have produced top fermented beers but in radically different forms with little in common with ales.My objection is with those who have decided to call these ales as well, without sources, bearing in mind that in their place of origin they are not termed ales.Why one needs to tell them otherwise is a mystery.
I won't link to Ron's research as he has long since stopped banging his head against a brick wall on the matter.If it's on the internet or the guys in the homebrew circle say top fermented beers are ales then no depth or diligence of research will convince them otherwise.
As for lagers, these have been lagered.Most have been bottom fermented as well, this is a consequence of low temperatures which favour this. German law states specifically what a beer needs to be termed lagerbier. It really should be left to the originators to decide what is what.
Changing language? Sure, ales have gradually evolved over time.So have ships , an 1840 ship isn't like a modern one.But rottweilers haven't all become poodles.
Beer doesn't belong in tight closed compartments.Why people find it necessary to shoehorn it into these I don't know.It doesn't help understanding.Research does that.

 

I remember my first lager

 

Part of my frustration comes from "watching" you beat your own head against a wall. While not entirely accurate, the answer of bottom fermented vs. top fermented is a good-enough answer.