Posting Trade Offers in ISO:FT

I don't care if people reply to my trade posts, but I understand that a lot of people do, which is why I think people should be free to lock their threads if they want to.

I never really understood why people get so upset about replies in trade posts though, the only time it's going to be truly detrimental to a thread is when the initial offer is unrealistic anyway.

 

It looks like Hanzo's point was ignored, so I'm quoting it:

in direct disagreement with:

Before I posted my first trade thread, I looked around to try to find confirmed trade posts with the bottles involved and was largely unsuccessful. While posting in this forum as a trade value thread did help me, it would be far clearer knowing the value of bottles if we could simply see the results of successful trades. Instead, these happen via private message, leaving new traders to rely on the word of others.

 

I didn't ignore it, Hanzo's point just isn't really valid. As I pointed out, 90% of the offers made inside the ISO/FT's are basically a joke. It's basically new traders who don't understand how to use the system and have no idea what things trade for. If you're using those to try to figure out what things trade for, you're going to be even worse off than flying blind.

There's no easy way to determine trade values, even for vets. The more you do it the more you learn the ropes, but it's a constantly moving target. Really, it's almost all about bottle count and wants/gots ratios for all but a small handful of beers. The best thing you can do is scan the FT/ISO's for a beer, and see what people are asking, and what people are offering, for the beer. Throw out the top and bottom 25%, and the most accurate value likely lies somewhere in that remaining area.

Also, if you can't figure it out, it's super easy to just throw up a post in the general trading forum "what is beer X trading for these days?", and you'll get your answer.

 

another tip for determining trade value is this process:

1) you have beer X, you want to trade it.

2) you embark on Thinking Session regarding what beer you'd like to get in return. brainstorm a few beers.

3) you post an FT: beer X, ISO: the beers you came up with during (2).

4) the trade either occurs or it doesn't. if the latter, go back to (2) and try again, or forget it.

 

you've been here since 2008 - is this question sincere?

 

i also want to elaborate a bit on why steps (1) thru (4) make so much sense.

stumbling upon some beer at the store and then trading it for the Highly Sought After Beers You Only Read about is not going to happen.

if you have something that commands a giant price in the trading market, chances are you paid a giant price to get it.

when wondering what something is worth, ask yourself: "how much effort did it take for me to get this beer?" "how much effort would it take for someone else to do the same?" etc etc.

you don't need to worry about missing that lottery-win with your beer. also, if you don't know what you're doing in the first place, you'd be safer hanging on to that hot shot beer anyway (get your feet wet first).

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edit: re: replies as offers, i prefer post only, but as long as people act like adults it doesn't really matter. "i want others to see what i'm offering so they don't offer something else," sounds like a dick move, but how so? if your offer is really that intimidating, isn't it just as likely to close down the trade in private (by being accepted)?

 

I guess I'm making a slightly tangential point that if posting real offers and having agreed-upon trades confirmed in threads were to become "the new trend," it would be a good resource to those users who wanted to use hard evidence to valuate their beers.

I'm not saying that posting a trade value thread is not useful, but if you ask someone what something is worth, he might give an answer that reflects what he wants the value to be rather than the "actual value" (by which I mean the most the market will bear). Clearly we don't want all trades to be that cutthroat (and from all the "generous BA" threads they definitely aren't), but until someone trades enough to become a part of a community, it's hard to leave something on the table.

Edit: In response to my being here since 2008, I was never in a position to trade beers until recently, so I never looked at the trade forums.

 

The problem with the whole conversation being on display is that the process is almost never as simple as
"hey, I'll give you Y and Z for X"
"ok, sounds good. Here's my shipping info"

There's often a bit of tweaking and negotiation that goes on that is frankly no one else's business.
Now, maybe it would cut dwn on the almost constant lowballing that goes on, but that's a different topic.
Again, reasons to stick with trading partners; of course, if you're new to the game, you don't have trading partners yet.

 

I hear what you are saying, but if all trades moved to public discussions, then it would create all of the issues I laid out above, and that would significantly outweigh the benefit of public valuation disclosures.

Also, as pointed out, it's rarely that simple. There's usually a good bit of back and forth, sometimes with 2 or 3 people at the same time. Then the vast majority of deals that I've done end up being multi-bottle, as straight up 1-for-1's lead to very expensive shipping costs per bottle.

The best perspective for a new trader is to just not worry too much about squeezing every ounce of value out of your beers. So what if you leave an ethereal 30% of value on the table? Just trade the beer you've got for the beer you want. Whether noob or vet, you "win some" and you "lose some" in most deals in terms of pure trading value, but it all equals out in the end.

 

because you can't reply to posts in iso/ft...oh wait...

...must be a thread volume thing? if you post in ISO/FT, your post is on page 2 within a few hours, whereas it takes days to get buried in this forum.


note, i do not do this practice, but if i were craftier i could see folks considering this.

 

Its hard to trust someone you don't know. And while some people out there will be very generous other will try to screw you but I agree transparency helps see what's getting traded and also let's some people know that what they though was worth wooden hell isn't worth that one!

It helps to build a good relationship with ba's regionally and it's a win win seems to work well for my group of traders and we can rest a sure that special bottle sent will be rewarded with a special bottle from them. It always seems to work out in the end!

 

This is why trade offers and negotiations in the ISO thread in public view is a really bad idea.

1. There will always be some traders who hold or want one of the beers involved that will inevitably be upset at a low or high offer. They could try to interfere either via posting in the thread or sending private messages. It has happened before.

2. I might cut someone a break on rarity value because they hooked me up in a past trade or because I noticed someone chasing after the beer for a long while and feel like helping them. Some people are just friendlier with some BAs than they are with others. Hence someone might trade the same beer at different values.

3. If someone sees you work out a trade at a low value, they will consider you a mark to be taken advantage of. Your mailbox will be flooded with lowball offers every time you post an ISO.

4. There is some back and forth negotiation on most trades. Traders may expand a trade, determine a ship date, exchange addresses, discuss other beers and trades, etc. This would keep topping the thread over and over, pushing new trades down the board fast and make it harder to browse the trade forum.

5. Some douche could try to step in and offer a bit more when they see the final trade parameters. We already have the occasional douchey trader back out of a trade when they see they can get more. We would definitely see more of that.

6. We have the Trading General Help forum to get feedback on the trade value or certain beers. The bros put it here for a reason, and it does help people who use it.

7. You can look at the ISO threads involving beers you want and just message the traders involved to ask what they ended up doing. I realize #6 and 7 aren't the spoon fed instant information people want these days, but you can find out everything you need.

 

What about when posts list King Henry but the OP only responds to inquiries for that beer with offers other less desirable things? Subsequent requests for that beer are also never acknowledged except for similar responses containing average stuff. This seems to happen to me a lot now, and my offers are usually pretty good... Is bait and switch a form of ISOffers? This came is what I had in mind when I selected the other option.

edit: gotta love how the new emoticons work

 

Really, this whole thing can be avoided. If you do not like replies or offers in your ISO:FT, simply state you do not want any. Every trade post I have made since replies were allowed, I said politely at the end, to please make all comments and offers in private conversation. Never got any replies yet, though I can probably expect some sarcastic ones(which I love) after making this post...

 

I definitely see the points you guys are making. I think I'm just trying to impose a hard set of standards onto an environment where there isn't really one.

 

Either make it post only which I loved, I could see every ISO in order from the last time I checked. Or at the very least give an option to sort by first post, which would give chronological order yet leave commenting for pertinent info / asshatery.

 

You can choose to sort it chronologically. However, you have to choose it each time you enter the ISO:FT forum, which is a bit tedious.

 

Good to know its been a while since I've browsed but with that option I may venture over.