Women in brewing

Thanks for posting. Good read. BMC is lucky this law does not apply today.

 

Total B.S. that anyone should have to put up with that crap, and trust me, those knuckleheads don't even realize it, and think they are funny. But they are the minority. Gotta use the Report tab when you feel like this, followed immediately by the Ignore tab.

 

I haven't called anyone racist, sexist, etc. in this thread, not sure where your comments about that are coming from. It sounds like you've got an axe to grind on that one....

"Never" was the wrong choice of words. My bad. But for the most part, in America, if your a woman or a person of color you have to work harder than white men to achieve similar success. This is not to say that white men don't work their asses off, they totally do. Instead, it means that if a non-dominant group member has achieved the same successes as dominant group member they did so in the face of more adversity. As such, that should be celebrated.

 

Oh please---we're not talking about women in 1880 trying to start breweries. We're talking about women in the 1980s-today. They have no friends that can't spot them some money to start a brewery? They can't homebrew in their kitchens like those guys did and convince others to support them? They can't save their money up and get going? A lot of credit cards have enough room to finance a small startup.

If a woman, or man for that matter, doesn't have enough equity or income or friends with income to start a microbrewery in today's financial climate, I would suggest to you that their financial situation isn't healthy enough to do it and it has nothing to do with (insert group identity) discrimination.

You can't compare today, which is what the thread is about, to "historically oppressed" eras.

 

Oh shit, you took the job! Where have I been? Way cool...best of luck! Can you share the brewery name?

 

This is where the discussion becomes frustrating. Often times, they start out with rational, thought-out statements regarding the disparities and disadvantages between groups. Then, without fail, someone comes in hurling the PC and victimhood cards. This thread started out as an acknowledgement and recognition for women in brewing. What's wrong with that? Why can't such discussions take place without people like yourself claiming we're preaching victimhood or clamoring for preferential treatment. Are you so fearful of your positions that any advancement by a minority group be considered a bad thing? Get over yourself, man. It ain't always about you.

 

Not always has been...but in 2013, I don't believe the divide is even close to how big it was decades ago, and not nearly as much as you still seem to think it is. When I can drive through my area and see numerous businesses owned by various races, immigrants, genders, etc. I think it is very apparent we've come a long way as a society in this country.

Have there been plenty of white men who have had it easier in this country for many decades? Sure. But to insinuate that all white males don't need to work hard, get everything handed to them and have it on easy street is not only ludicrous, but a flat out insult to anyone who's had to work their ass up from nothing to become a success.

 

That's a strange ingredient, i'd stick with malt

 

I completely agree that if someone doesn't have the equity and income to start a brewery then they shouldn't. Be it woman, man, black, white, purple, whatever. If you don't have access to the bread, don't do it. No doubt.

Nevertheless, your still trying to sponge away the discrimination of woman that happens today, in 2013. It's not just something that happened in the 1890's. You say that women have the same access to friends with money as men. I would disagree with that. While there are surely countless rich women and women with rich friends, these two facts still remain: 1.) We are most likely to befriend people in our socioeconomic class. Although it certainly happens, the data suggests that people in one socioeconomic class rarely develop close friendships (like the types were someone would lend you some money) with folks in another socioeconomic class. And 2.) Women's earning potential is far less than men's. In fact, it's about $0.75 for every $1 men earn. So, if we know women have less earning potential and we know our friends largely have similar incomes as us, then it is not as much of a stretch as you think it is that women indeed have less opportunities to borrow the requisite amount of money needed to start a brewery from friends.

 

Your words:
"they never would have to work as hard as a woman or a person of color trying to achieve the same thing."

Dude, that's a racist/sexist comment. You're saying, because of a person's color/gender, they would "never/for the most part" work as hard as someone else of a different/gender color. . . as if you know all the intracacies and variables at play in someone's life solely based on their skin color or gender. Sorry, I call hypocritical bullshit on that one.

That is supposedly the type of thing we're supposed to be opposed to in this day and age. . .

But because of the racial preference/affirmative action mindset so many promote, when you think a "non dominant" group achieves, they are often looked at by a large segment of the population (right or wrong, truthfully somewhere in the middle probably) as having only achieved success because of their minority status.

When my ex got into a great law school, it was often viewed as 'well she got to check the latino/hispanic box' despite her being amazingly intelligent and a great person. Same thing when she went to work for the IRS.

When another ex got a great job as a DA in a big city, it was often viewed as 'well they needed to hire a black person' despite her being amazingly well suited for the job.

Everyone is capable. But I'm opposed to the enabling culture of victimhood.

 

I never said white males don't need to work hard. I never said white males have everything handed to them. By in large, white men work like dogs, day in and day out. You are confusing my statements about the amount of necessary work minorities and women must put in to achieve success with the idea that the opposite groups don't need to put in hard work. That's not what I am saying at all. White men works their assess off. However, if there's a white male who owns and operates a brewery and there's a woman that owns and operates a brewery, no matter how hard the man worked he most likely didn't have to face the same types of road blocks that the woman did. That doesn't mean he didn't work hard. That's all I am saying.

And yeah, we've come a long way. I totally agree. But where we were before was abysmal, so it's not that favorable of a statement. The discrimination that exists now is not what it was, but it is still substantial, impactful and unacceptable.

 

Thanks for corroborating my claim.

"One of the main tactics of said industry is to stereotype and make generalizations about those who oppose it or dare to call it out (the irony). You're racist, you're white, you're sexist, you're ignorant etc. . . and sometimes that's just if you oppose increasing government spending!"

 

I agree that it is ludicrous that people claimed the success of your various ex's was due to their skin color and affirmative action. Again, I would suggest that they were very talented people for achieving as they did, especially considering that various forms of racism and sexism may have been things they needed to struggle to overcome. I agree with your frustrations with such comments.

If you think me saying that non-dominant populations have to work harder to achieve the same results as dominant populations is racist, then I think you need to double check what racism really is.

And again, this is not to say that the dominant group members are working hard. They are!!!!! They just aren't dealing with all of the struggles that others may be dealing with. Such struggles need to be understood in my opinion.

 

It is. You're making a generalization based on race. My position: Sometimes minorities work harder. Sometimes they don't.

The determination of whether they do, or don't, isn't based on their skin color, its actually, you know, what they do, the effort. . . not because of what they are.

 

I'm sure you know as much already, but warning: if you plan to call one out, get ready for 'I was only joking, take it easy there.'

Anyway, thanks for chiming in.

 

Damn right I'm thrilled! Women + beer. That's the top 2 of my 'stranded on a desert island' list.

But are there any examples you can share of people being 'definitely degrading/truly insulting'? And I'm not asking to challenge you on it, I don't think I've ever disagreed with anything you've posted. . . I just want to know what is considered insulting/degrading from a lady who seems pretty well grounded.

 

I find these sweeping generalizations to be pretty appalling, and honestly rather shocking that they're coming from you; while I may not always agree with you, Providence, I usually have respected the way you go about debating your side. But this time around, I'm sorry I just find some of these statements to be ridiculous. From a historical standpoint, yes; but in today's society, not nearly as much as you're making it out as.

At this point I'll just agree to disagree with you before it gets more heated, but I'll leave you with this... maybe you can understand why I don't agree with you, if you can explain to me why out of my friends I know more women who currently own their own businesses, some of whom aren't white either; or maybe you can fill me in on why the youngest partner ever at the tax firm I work for, who is a good decade younger than the next closest partner, happens to be a woman. None of them seem to have experienced these obstacles that you claim still exist so prevalently.

 

I am not overlooking the effort, it's all part of the achievement.

Sometimes people work hard, sometimes they don't, I totally agree with that statement. But when we're talking about two successful people, let's say two owners of prominent breweries. If one is white and one is a person of color, would you not agree that in the person of colors' quest for success they faced specific challenges that the white person didn't have to face? Would you not agree that while the white person faced challenges that were unique to them as well they weren't challenges as major as some of the potential one's faced by the person of color?

 

I can't believe this is still open!

 

You're taking individual examples from your experience and transferring them to larger society. That is a foolish way to develop an understanding of how complex issues work and frankly, you have never struck me as a fool. That kind of reasoning is no different than me reading a report that says "Women earn less than men" and saying, "No they don't, because my wife makes more than I do." Of course there are exceptions. You have friends and co-workers that are examples of those exceptions. But, the larger data suggests that the difficulties do exist.

I know we are breaking all the rules on BA, so if you want to talk about this in a private conversation I am up for that. Otherwise, then I think you are right when you say it may be time for us to agree to disagree. As I said to 5thOhio, if you ever find yourself in RI hit me up and we'll talk about it more over a few pints.