Sour ale - when should I add the fruit?

Discussion in 'Homebrewing' started by pmoney, Jul 18, 2013.

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  1. pmoney

    pmoney Initiate (0) Apr 15, 2011 Illinois

    I'm brewing a 15 gallon batch of a brown ale on Saturday that will be soured and set-aside for 18 months. I'm planning to add 10 pounds of cherries per 5 gallons. My question is when should I add the cherries? Straight into primary with the wort? After the 1-2 week initial fermentation? Some early on and some in the later months closer to bottling?

    Thanks in advance for any insight!
     
  2. sarcastro

    sarcastro Savant (1,133) Sep 20, 2006 Michigan

    I would wait at least a year. This will allow the primary yeast to die off, otherwise the sugar from the fruit will mostly just increase the alcohol instead of sourness. I have heard some say aging for 3 months is best for fruit flavor.
     
  3. pmoney

    pmoney Initiate (0) Apr 15, 2011 Illinois

    Meaning aging the last three months before bottling?
     
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  4. jbakajust1

    jbakajust1 Pooh-Bah (2,552) Aug 25, 2009 Oregon
    Pooh-Bah

    The later the better. If you are doing 18 months aging, I would wait until 15 months until adding the fruit. The fruit will fade with time just like in a standard fruit beer, the longer you age it on the fruit the less fruit character you will get in the end product.
     
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  5. sarcastro

    sarcastro Savant (1,133) Sep 20, 2006 Michigan

    Yes, 3 months before packaging.
     
  6. mikehartigan

    mikehartigan Maven (1,421) Apr 9, 2007 Illinois

    When should you add the fruit to a Sour Ale? Personally, I would say never :wink: But that's not helpful.

    It depends. You want the fruit to age proportionally with the rest of the beer. Flavors need time to meld. Too short a time and they'll taste too fresh. Too long and you'll lose too much of the cherries. A fixed 'three months' may be too early for a beer that will be aged for three months, or too late for a beer that will be aged for ten years. I would suggest adding them at about 90% of its aging time. IOW, if you're going to age it for a year, then add the cherries about 5 weeks before serving. If you're aging it for 18 months, then about 2 months.
     
  7. pmoney

    pmoney Initiate (0) Apr 15, 2011 Illinois

    Thanks for your insight! Another thing I've got to consider is that 30 pounds of cherries are being delivered tomorrow...so... :wink:

    I'm thinking I will most-likely add half (5 pounds) to each carboy initially and half with 2-3 months before bottling. Hopefully this will accomplish both issues you mentioned - flavor integration and fresh fruit flavor. Then I just have to find freezer space for 15 pounds of cherries for the next 15 months! :grinning:
     
  8. mikehartigan

    mikehartigan Maven (1,421) Apr 9, 2007 Illinois

    I should have qualified my advice by saying that I've not done A-B comparisons on different techniques, only that this made sense, I do it routinely, and it works great! I've also had discussions with some of the more experienced members of my brewclub, and the consensus is that this is a sound practice.

    Regarding your predicament (cherries arriving tomorrow), you'll be fine. The primary 'damage' from freezing, such as it is, is that cell walls rupture, releasing water, resulting in a product that is not quite what it was before freezing. But this is primarily a texture issue. (This is hideously evident with fish. Less so, but not insignificantly with meats like beef, pork, and chicken, for example). In this case, that's largely irrelevant - you're looking for sugars and the good stuff that makes a cherry taste like a cherry. Texture is not an issue.

    That said, package them properly for the freezer! FoodSaver is an insanely valuable tool for things like this.
     
  9. pmoney

    pmoney Initiate (0) Apr 15, 2011 Illinois

    Sounds great, and I think that's what I'll do. Regarding packaging the cherries, and considering I don't have the option to vaccuum-seal them, I would assume double-bagging with freezer bags is probably my best option.
     
  10. TNGabe

    TNGabe Initiate (0) Feb 6, 2012 Tennessee

    Add fruit when the beer is done. I never plan on fruiting a beer or set a timeline on my sours. I let taste tell me what to do and when to do it.
     
  11. pmoney

    pmoney Initiate (0) Apr 15, 2011 Illinois

    Okay, so when your taste buds tell you the beer is done, and you add the fruit, how long do you leave it before bottling? If taste is the answer to that question too, I'm afraid you're just going to have to come move to Illinois for the next couple years.
     
  12. TNGabe

    TNGabe Initiate (0) Feb 6, 2012 Tennessee

    To thine own mouth be true.
     
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  13. mwcullnane

    mwcullnane Initiate (0) Sep 28, 2010 Indiana

    Agreed. Fruit should be added once an appropriate level of acid/funk has been achieved in the beer. I go with 20# of IQF fruit for a 5 gallon batch. Primary with Belgian Golden. Secondary with Lacto, Brett, and wood chips that have been steamed and inoculated. Condition until acid/funk flavors develops to one's liking (in my case this has occurred anywhere from 14-18 months for me over the last three batches completed). Rack beer onto fruit that has been allowed to thaw to room temperature in a 6.5 gallon carboy. Condition for one month before sampling, sample once every two/three weeks until the beer is to your liking (in my case this has occurred between 10-12 weeks), rack off fruit, then package for consumption. You may need to filter fruit debris from beer prior to being bottled, and you will lose some volume to the fruit. I bottle all my sours so that I can sample over time. I use locally grown blueberries, freeze them in a single layer on sheet trays, then bag them for storage prior to use. The use of fresh, unfrozen berries would introduce unknown wild yeasts and bacteria that adds a variable that I have not been willing to accept into the equation up until this point. I highly recommend Jeff Sparrow's Wild Brews.
     
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  14. mikehartigan

    mikehartigan Maven (1,421) Apr 9, 2007 Illinois

    Do these 'unknown wild yeasts and bacteria' somehow become less undesirable after freezing?
     
  15. tngolfer

    tngolfer Initiate (0) Feb 16, 2012 Tennessee

    Or eat them and buy more in 15 months.
     
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  16. mwcullnane

    mwcullnane Initiate (0) Sep 28, 2010 Indiana


    To my understanding, yes, freezing slows them down to the point where they are not able to compete with the remaining brett and lacto in the beer, at least within the time period that I have aged the beer on the fruit. In Wild Brews Sparrow states, "The traditional brewer [of Lambic/Gueze and Flanders acid ales] generally allows the beer and fruit to ferment from six to nine months" (230). To my knowledge, traditional brewers do not freeze the fruit before adding to their beer, but they also have much more knowledge/experience making fruited Lambics/acid ales than I, and are confident that the flavors contributed by any wild yeast or bacteria left on the skin of the fruit will not have too much of a negative impact on the beer. I use cultures of Brett and Lacto from White Labs to inoculate my homebrewed acid ales, and as I am unsure as to what wild yeast and bacteria live in my area (the blueberries are grown on a farm <5 miles from my house), I am reluctant to intentionally introduce them to my beer in anything other than the lowest concentration possible.
     
  17. mikehartigan

    mikehartigan Maven (1,421) Apr 9, 2007 Illinois

    My understanding is that, in general, freezing stops the bacterias' progress only while it's frozen. Once thawed, it restarts exactly where it left off. There may be some lag time before things become a problem, and I'll defer to the experts on that point (I judged some wild stuff with Jeff a few years ago and he definitely knows a thing or two more about this topic than I do).
     
  18. jbakajust1

    jbakajust1 Pooh-Bah (2,552) Aug 25, 2009 Oregon
    Pooh-Bah

    Why not find out? Take them there blueberries, put a handful into 1L of 1.020 wort with 1/3 apple juice 2/3 water for your liquid, and let them sit for 2 weeks. Step it up to 1L of 1.040 wort. Then 2L, pitch it into a 5 gallon batch of Lambic wort, and let her go for one year, no dregs, no WLP cultures. See what you have. I fermented my first Lambic with yeast I cultured off blackberries growing over the fence into my yard from the neighbor's house. Took it down to 1.006 in 3 weeks, fruity, light acids, lots of tropical fruit. Had some last night at almost 2 years old now, soft acids, lots of fruit, light funk (and I added lots of dregs to that batch over the year it fermented).
     
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  19. jae

    jae Initiate (0) Feb 21, 2010 Washington

    I've added some immediately at secondary, after a 3-4 week primary ferment, though they were usually dried fruit. Left the beer on them until packaging (6 - 18 months). Also have "finished" a sour after a secondary for ~ 1 year, before racking onto fruit (fresh, then frozen) for 3-4 months.
     
  20. pmoney

    pmoney Initiate (0) Apr 15, 2011 Illinois

    I'm basically planning on doing both of these. I've got 10 pounds of cherries per 5 gallons of beer. I'm planning to add half (5 pounds) after 2-3 weeks once primary fermentation is complete. The of ther half will be added about 2 months before bottling. Hopefully this will give the beer a nice flavor integration after aging on cherries for so long, but will also accomplish the fresh-fruit goal with the late addition.
     
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