Do Modern German Breweries Use Decoction?

Malt variety, where it is grown, and how it is malted will all make a difference. One can argue the the maltsters have a very big influence on the beer.

Does anyone know what the base malt is for Sam Adams Oktoberfest? German or NA.

 

Sam adams uses in their octoberfest - munich, harrington, caramel and two row moravian malts. Plus tettenang and hallertauer hops I think. If I am wrong please let me know.

 

On the topic of decoction mashing - Prost in Denver definitely does. I believe they're even the only double decoction mashing brewery in the US...at least to Bill at Prost's knowledge.
I've talked to a few brewers and industry folks about it and it seems like that even when chemical analysis doesn't show major differences, decoction adds something else to the beer that shows up in the body. Still, I guess there's a fair amount of debate on how necessary it is.

 

That looks to be good, except that Harrington is a North American barley. The hops are spot on.

 

That's it. I'm moving!

I've heard the same -- it definitely adds to the beer.

 

I also saw Weyermann super sacks and red overalls at Prost.

 

I have heard that Live Oak does a decoc mash on their hefeweizen, which explains the quality. Not sure about the other beers.

 

I am almost positive that Uerige just does step mashes, not a decoction. The brew house is out in the open so you can watch them brew and check for yourself. There were reports years ago that Schumacher still used decoction but I was never able to verify one way or the other. Füchschen and Schlüssel don't decoct either.

BTW, Frank Hebmüller has been gone from Uerige for 5 years or so (my last contact with him was in late 2007 and when I tried in 2008 he had left).

 

That timeframe is about when I got my information. Energy costs are high in Germany, so a step mash will save a little money. Thanks for the update.

 

I would think that open fermentation would also be necessary to create a truly authentic Weizen. At least that's what I've read/heard German brewers (and Dan Carey at New Glarus) say.

 

Got the same impression from Sierra Nevada.

 

I just reached out to a friend who is a former brewer at Uerige and he confirms it. The only vessel in the brew house that is heated is the mash tun/boil kettle so no way to heat a decoction anyway.

As herrburgess alludes to, I think open fermentation is also a big factor. Every brewery in Franconia I've visited has used open fermentation, as do the ones I've toured in Düsseldorf and Köln and very few in the US do (I remember Sudwerk in Davis did -- but I haven't been there in 15 years).

 

Open fermentation also allows for top-cropping of yeast -- which many tout as essential to maintaining proper yeast health and helping the beer gain the right character. I think it was Kai/Braukaiser who said that top-cropping also aids the brewers in achieving a purer taste profile by preventing hop gunk and other Trub from falling back through the beer after primary. Then there are the horizontal lagering tanks that provide a shorter distance for the yeast to have to fall out of solution in secondary. Lots and lots and lots of little things add up to that authentic character. And very very few U.S. craft places employ all/most/any of these.

 

OK so I compared two octoberfest beers to view for myself the differences.

I used sam adams octoberfest and spaten octoberfest. The differences in the beers were apparent in every category.

The sam adams had a coppery amber color that was watery and orange. The spaten had the color of copper, deep and glowing within the body of the beer. It had the presence of red fire from within itself. The head retention was a little different. The sam adams had looser retention and the spaten had thicker creamier foam.

The nose was similar except the hop character on the sam adams was more pronounced. The citrus more at the front. The malt in the sam adams imparted a bitter quality of it's own that cannot be attributed to hop presence and I called it an undertone. In the spaten, the malt was the star with rich deep caramel, toffee undertones and nutty accents.

The bodies of both beers were quite different. The spaten, rich and flowing, not thick or heavy but deeply sweet without any cloying. Lush and full. The malt in sam adams was also full but had less nutty taste and more toasted quality with a bit of sourness to go with it. It was a bit thinner overall. The spaten drank like elegance and luxury and the sam was more watery and has a much looser mouthfeel. The hops in the spaten were light and present but not forward in any way. The spaten was deep and resilient.

The sam adams octoberfest is a fine beer but the spaten is the better.

I think decoction makes a big difference.

 

While I agree with the findings of your tasting, I have to interject to say that there are no caramel, toffee, or nutty notes to the Spaten Oktoberfest (assuming you have fresh stock).

The melanoidin character in Spaten (and other good Oktos) is often misunderstood as caramel, but it's really not as sweet. Caramel (and toffee) are very prevalent in English ales, specifically ESB. Try a fullers ESB alongside a Spaten Okto and you'll really see the difference.

As far as "nutiness," try a Victory Festbier or even Shiner Oktoberfest alongside the Spaten -- real nuttiness stands out from the 2 Ami Oktos.

Melanoidin is a very difficult character to describe, but it starts sweetish -- bread crust-like, and ends dry with a toasted bread character lingering.

 

I thought it was fresh. I I thought I tasted a lighter sugar flavor under the caramel that was very much like a toffee flavor and that had a bit of nutty quality. Maybe melanoidin is what I was tasting. Maybe "malty sweetness" or "richer sugar" would be a better word than toffee. It was very rich as compared to the other beer. The color was tremendous too. I would call it nutty lightly toasted grain but so deep.

 

Something I found in doing some past research that might shed some light on the subject:

 

I am sure that you are right. I have to say it was the richness of the malt and the layers to it that really stood out. Once I read your description a bell rang and I thought back to try and remember it. I remember really enjoying the finish on it that fits your description to a tee. That quality really does taste like caramel.

 

Now I understand a little better why I prefer Spaten and Ayinger Oktoberfests. I love the carmely, malty sweetness. Now I'm wanting one. ^_^

 

Recentl, well the last few years, I have read the Melanoidins have no aroma and add color. Maillard reactions at what produce the flavor.