Can Cantillon be found in Germany?

May be a bit of cultural miscommunication: Being an American, I still consider Olde Mecklenburg local, though it is 1.5 hrs away by car, so I was assuming most people could find something good within those parameters.

 

“If the standard of lager beer was to be reduced over here and replaced with hoppy IPAs I too would feel a sense of loss.”

Patrik, just to be clear, this phenomenon of beers being reduced/replaced is not what generally happens in the US. This phenomenon is not happening in Southeastern PA (or southern New Jersey, Northern Delaware. or Maryland). I have plenty of lagers to pick from: imported lagers (like Spaten) and locally made lagers from Victory, Sly Fox, Troegs, Stoudts, and a plethora of brewpubs. I also have plenty of hoppy beers like APAs, IPAs, DIPAs to choose from. As far as I am concerned the US beer scene (within a radius of 100 miles from me) is absolutely OUTSTANDING.

Below are the current top 5 beers of BA:

1 Heady Topper

American Double / Imperial IPA / 8.00% ABV

The Alchemist 4.71 5125

2 Pliny The Younger

American Double / Imperial IPA / 11.00% ABV

Russian River Brewing Company 4.65 1786

3 Pliny The Elder

American Double / Imperial IPA / 8.00% ABV

Russian River Brewing Company 4.64 7786

4 Bourbon County Brand Coffee Stout

American Double / Imperial Stout / 13.40% ABV

Goose Island Beer Co. 4.63 2921

5 Founders KBS (Kentucky Breakfast Stout)

American Double / Imperial Stout / 11.20% ABV

I have had every one of these beers (on multiple occasions) which I have purchased from regular beer retailers (beer stores and/or beer bars). I have a 4-pack of Bourbon County Brand Coffee Stout sitting in my basement.

I have never visited the Beer Trading Forum on BA and I never will. There are plenty of very good to excellent beers available via non-trading.

Cheers!

 

I'm starting to wonder whether WASP areas of the US are less compatible with a good availability of craft beers, both lagers and ales, compared to ethnic European areas. I've read about the south having had fewer breweries, period, in the past compared to the northeast and midwest. This due to the heat, i.e difficulty of fermentation, and with 19th century lager brewing the difficulty to brew lager beer in hot climates. Perhaps it is as simple as this, and south Carolina will, unfortunately, be home to fewer breweries than say Pennsylvania, and the breweries that do exist will likely want to challenge the mid-western lager beer brewers by brewing ales primarily. Whilst the north-east doesn't need to rebel against their past, they can instead rediscover it when the time is right.

Those are just some of my own ethnological musings (although I am very much interested in ethnology).

 

You're being disingenuous here, Jack, as you well know that Philly is the only east coast city to which Pliny is distributed. And, I, too, have had KBS, BCBCS, and Heady, but only through one of the hard-core traders in my area; every bit of every one of those beers is sold out within hours of hitting the stores here -- and is more often than not grabbed up by the same group of people.

EDIT: as for the Victory and Stoudts beers, they are acceptable U.S. interpretations of German beers IMO (esp. in the condition I can get them in); but compared to what you can get in Germany they are 2nd-3rd tier examples. I am still interested in trying more of them at the source, but when I hear comparisons of Sly Fox to Oettinger, I don't get my hopes up too high...though I also don't write them off completely until I have had them at the source.

 

Patrik, I am uncertain whether this is any ‘easy’ way to characterize the US beer market.

Firstly, the fact that the US had Prohibition from 1920 – 1933 I am sure has residual effects. In order to get alcohol being legal again they set up a three tier distribution system: breweries sell to wholesale distributors who sell to retailers. In addition each state has their own unique liquor laws. Pennsylvania has some very conservative/restrictive liquor laws: liquor and wine can only be purchased via state owned Wine & Spirits stores (what would be called a monopoly in Sweden?). The primary packaged retail outlets are Retail Beer Distributors where you have to purchase beer by the case. There are some retail outlets for purchasing beer via six-packs or bottles but they limit the number of licenses for those stores so there is not very good competition for beer drinkers to shop around (prices for 4 packs are sometimes high). Despite these conservative/restrictive laws the availability of beer brands in SEPA is OUTSTANDING. I have read articles which claim that the case law (retail beer distributors being the primary retail outlet) is a positive for having increased availability. I have never been convinced by these articles. I must confess that I really do not know the specific explanation for why things are so good here. And it is not just the immediate SEPA area. I enjoy beer shopping in South Jersey, Northern Delaware and Maryland as well. There is very good distribution and choices all around me.

Cheers!

 

Oh dear. God I'm going to hate US lagers when I go back, won't I?

Serious question to you HB, what kind of shape are the Schlenkerla's and other German favorites in when you find them in SC? Is a mediocre but fresh German-style American beer worse than an authentic but old German beer?

 

“God I'm going to hate US lagers when I go back, won't I?” No you won’t.

There are plenty of US brewed high quality German style beers: both lagers and other German beer styles.

For example, Sly Fox Helles Golden Lager is a very, very good beer despite what you might read otherwise.

And don’t forget about brewpub brewed beers. I am uncertain where you will be located when you came back to the US but in the Philly area there are many brewpubs making high quality German style beers.

Cheers!

 

Schlenkerla is in OK shape (more so the Eiche and Urbock than the Maerzen), and can be very good if you can find it on tap. Mahr's, Leipziger Gose, and some Koelsches (Suenner) have all been in absolutely horrific shape when I have found them -- in addition to costing around $6-7 per bottle. Still buy Schlenk (well, used to...); stopped buying the others.

As I have said, there are some very good German styles from Olde Meck and New Glarus (as well as some others I haven't been able to try yet like Prost, Urban Chestnut, Lazy Monk, etc.). The Brooklyn Gold Standard Export Kellerbier was top-notch; it was apparently brewed with Weyermann floor-malted pils and New Glarus yeast. Most of those fresh are typically better than a stale German version. But keep in mind that the Brooklyn set me back $19 for a growler (about $95 per German case). Ouch!

There are many, many U.S. "craft" versions that are passable, but compared to the beers you can find in almost any Bavarian village (or any Bavarian beer you can order online) they are 2nd-tier at best, and more typically 3rd-tier. Add to that the prices (around $11 a six pack where I live, or $50 a German case) and I typically stick to the German imports (Spaten...when I could find it, Koenig, Weihenstephaner, between $7 and 10 a six pack).

 

...I should add that I don't "hate" U.S. lagers. It's just that the combination of 2nd-/3rd-tier quality at 5x-10x the cost, and the inevitable and frequently unnecessary "twists" just doesn't add up to anything I want to revisit (and all too often left me kicking myself for purchasing so many of them in the first place -- I'm a slow learner...and a nostomaniac!). I simply refuse to join the chorus of praise and instead prefer to stick to my "old friend" beers. But getting called a "hater" is certainly nothing new in U.S. society these days either....

 

The discussion about hunting and shipping beer is mühsam. Fact is, most BAs can be considered "early adapters" in the beer scene, just as the people who hunt down the newest hard-to-find Apple device or other electronic piece must pay a premium for their desires. From a marketing standpoint, it's all pretty normal and is actually fueling the growth (whether you like it or not). I hate listening to retailers ask me about the newest DIPA or TIPA and devote more cooler space to IPAs and don't give a shit that I have Andechs, Jever, Flensburger or Weltenburger in my backpack.

If you do not wish to take part the chase, don't. It sucks for me as a beer salesman, but both retailers and consumers are buying this high-priced, high-hyped stuff and they are riding the wave. On the one side, I can't blame them, on the other my heart bleeds to see that many good beers must suffer for lack of "wow" power.

 

Depends on what you get. If you can get Heater Allen, for example, you will be quite happy. He only makes traditional German beers, no extra/unnecessary twists, and they are excellent and affordable. 22oz bottles are around $4-$5.

 

You Americans...
If I go 1,5 hours to the East I'm in Pilsen (= Czechia).
If I go 1,5 hours to the South I'm in Salzburg (= Austria).
If I go 1,5 hours to the North I'm in Bamberg (= Franconia)
If I go 1,5 hours to the West I'm somewhere in Schwaben where they talk funny and drink wine...

 

From my observation it has mostly to do with religion. The more Catholic an area is, the less restrictive alcohol laws used to be. Look at Europe. The further North you go, the nuttier it get's.

 

There are beer drinkers and there are thrill seekers.

Yes, I know I'm repeating myself

 

Yes, you will. I have not found a drinkable Hell (or Hell forbid, a Märzen) anywhere between Maine and Virginia and believe me, we tried. I resorted to drinking Amber Ales which, curiously enough don't taste that horribly different from a Märzen after a fashion. Of course, it's been a while that I was over there (2006 to be precise) so things may have changed. Although, seeing how often stuff like Spaten is mentioned around here as a shining beacon of German brewing I wouldn't get my hopes up too far.

 

Ethnic European ares in the U.S? In most of the ethnic European neighborhoods in and around Chicago the import selections are huge, but not the craft beers.

On the other hand, Wisconsin has a big ethnic German population (all be it, some generations removed for the majority) and there are many micros that brew decent -- if not always spot-on -- German-style beers.

 

Not all parts of Europe are "beer areas" to begin with. Without beer being part of their "root culture" people would not seek to immitate it after emigration, would they ?

It would be interesting to know where in Germany these Wisconsinites originated from.

 

Oh, I'm sure it could be researched… if one were retired and didn't have to make a living.

(quick Google: http://mki.wisc.edu/News/Courses/278Course/gerwis.html
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=102523977
http://morethancurds.blogspot.com/2012/09/germans-in-wisconsin.html
http://www.wisconsinhistory.org/whspress/books/book.asp?book_id=225
http://german-americanculturalfoundation.blogspot.com

You ought to be proud of my favorite neighbor! )

 

There are a large number of people in Pennsylvania of German speaking descent and also lots of Pennsylvania breweries (packaging breweries and brewpubs) that make high quality German style beers (lagers and non-lagers).

The early Germans came to Pennsylvania in three waves:

“As mentioned previously, the pioneers arrived here in the main prior to the Revolution. They came in what may be called three waves: 1683-1710, beginning with the founding of Germantown to the coming of the Swiss Mennonites; 1710-1727, at which time immigration was reaching large proportions, and when publishing of statistics was begun; 1727-1776, at the outbreak of the Revolution, which, of course, put an end for the time being to all immigration.

Few came during the first period, the second increasingly, so that some sort of control seemed in order, and the third brought in large numbers”

Also:

“The Third Period; 1727-1776.--On October 14, 1727, the Provincial Council did, something for the Germans in Pennsylvania and their descendants, of great and lasting value to historians and genealogists.

Council adopted a resolution requiring all masters of vessels importing Germans and other foreigners to prepare a list of such persons, their occupations, and place from whence they came; further, these immigrants should sign a declaration of allegiance and subjection to the king of Great Britain, and of fidelity to the Proprietary of Pennsylvania.

Such lists with names, over thirty thousand in number, may be found in print. 1 They are also of interest to the amateur researcher. These lists contain also the names of the vessels, captains, port from which last sailed, and date of arrival in Philadelphia. The lists are not too detailed as to the specific parts of Germany, or wherever, that these people hailed. Generally the names are of men, from age 16 upward, women of that day not being too able to write their names, a short-coming noticeable on the lists is they pertain to men, too, by reason of the familiar "

It is my understanding that these early German speaking immigrants where mostly non-Catholic; there were a fair amount of Mennonites and Anabaptists for example.

The next big(ger) wave of German immigration came during the mid-late 1800s. Many of this next generation of German speaking immigrants were Catholic.

I have a good friend with the last name of Dinkel who grew up in Hamburg, PA (a largely German descendant town). He is descended from early German immigrants and he and his family refer to themselves as being Pennsylvania Dutch. They refer to the people who descended from the 1800’s German immigrants as being Germans.

Prost!

Above quoted paragraphs are from:http://www.sacred-texts.com/ame/elpg/elpg02.htm

 

Gotta wonder why there isn't much beer coming out of North Dakota with the majority of German immigrants?

Oh yeah -- and I forgot Minnesota, my second favorite neighbor.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_American#Demographics