Low gravity saison, seeking sparge and yeast advice

Discussion in 'Homebrewing' started by BuckettOfBeer, Dec 12, 2013.

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  1. BuckettOfBeer

    BuckettOfBeer Zealot (506) Mar 19, 2010 Minnesota

    The idea for this beer was inspired by Jester King's Le Petit Prince. I think it would be cool to brew a low gravity, pretty low ABV yet still interesting saison. This is going to be a brew in a bag. Here's the recipe:

    5 gallon
    OG: ~1.030
    IBU: ~13

    3# Belgian Pilsner (54.5%)
    2# Belgian Munich (36.4%)
    .5# Rahr White Wheat (9.1 %)

    .25 oz Sterling (30 min)
    .75 oz Sterling (5 min)

    60 minute boil, mash at 150-151 for 60 minutes

    My first question: what is the best way to sparge? I've been doing partial mash brews with good results for over a year now. I do the main mash in the grain bag, lift it out and let drip, then "dunk sparge" in a second pot to hit around 170 degrees. I let that sit 10-20 minutes and then lift out again and pour that into the boil kettle. Do I need to change anything from my normal routine to ensure good efficiency for a brew not aided by any extract? I plan on double crushing the grain.


    Now on to the yeast. I'm planning on fermenting first with 3724 and then hitting it with Brettanomyces clausenii. My previous experience has only been 100% fermentations with brett trois, never as a secondary strain. Any tips on when to pitch the brett? In primary, secondary, or co-pitch? If in the secondary what gravity to pitch at? How long to ferment after? Make a starter or just throw it in? Ideal temperature?

    I lurk often but post rarely so be gentle. Thanks!
     
  2. jbakajust1

    jbakajust1 Pooh-Bah (2,552) Aug 25, 2009 Oregon
    Pooh-Bah

    I have no answer on the sparge, I use a cooler MLT and would not use any sparge water were this my beer, I would mash with full volume.

    I love 3724, 3726 is amazing and is out right now. I usually let my Saisons ferment to a stable FG (under 1.006) and then add Brett B (Orval) at bottling. It really seems to kick up the Brett character fairly quick when it is under pressure like that. I had a 7 month old bottle take 2nd in category. I still have a 6 pack of that beer in the cellar at 2.25 years old, and it drinks great. Did another Saison last February that I hit with Brett B (Elysian Mortis) at bottling that is coming along nicely. I did a 3726 session saison that was great while it lasted (no Brett), and then rebrewed it with 3/4 gallon hit with RR dregs for 4 weeks of primary and blended back in at bottling, well over a year later it has funk and a good sourness, still super fruity. Both bottled w/ Brett Saisons were 3724, and the Brett was from a starter.
     
  3. ShawDeuce22

    ShawDeuce22 Crusader (457) Mar 17, 2009 Massachusetts

    Can you explain why you would do this?
     
  4. jbakajust1

    jbakajust1 Pooh-Bah (2,552) Aug 25, 2009 Oregon
    Pooh-Bah

    With that little grain what is the point. You would only need a minuscule amount of water to rinse. Just an extra unneeded step. I have done no sparge on 5 gallons of Imperial Red IPA. I remember reading on the old forum that quite a few people go with no sparge on low gravity beers to help with retaining body.
     
  5. ShawDeuce22

    ShawDeuce22 Crusader (457) Mar 17, 2009 Massachusetts

    Sounds interesting. I've been doing more lower ABV stuff than not, I'm going to have to try that. So your initial water volume (for a 5 gal batch) would be

    (5 gal) + (grain absorption) + (boil off evaporation)

    amirite?
     
    jbakajust1 likes this.
  6. BuckettOfBeer

    BuckettOfBeer Zealot (506) Mar 19, 2010 Minnesota

    No sparge is definitely a route I'd like to try but I neglected to mention my largest kettle is 6 gallons to the brim (a big reason I'm not doing all grain batches). I do need to end up topping off with water to get to 5 gallons once the brew day is done. So I don't think that is an option, but would you still suggest using as much water as I can hold in the initial mash?
     
  7. od_sf

    od_sf Initiate (0) Nov 2, 2010 California

    I've done a lot of saisons with brett, including a recent 3.95% ABV saison "biere de table" with 3724 and brett b that is turning out to be a really fantastic beer.

    I usually pitch the brett from Orval dregs about a week after primary fermentation, then leave in primary for another 6 weeks or so. You don't want to make a starter when using brett as a secondary strain. I usually use dregs of 1 bottle of Orval for 2.5 gallon batches, and its more than enough. After a couple of months I get very pronounced brett flavor and aroma from that.

    Brett does well with a variety of temperatures. It will should fine with whatever temp you're using with your saison yeast.

    I've also dosed the brett at bottling (using a 30 ml bottle dropper - about 3 or 4 drops of dregs per bottle) and had good results that way as well. Make sure the beer is already under 1.010 when bottling so that you don't overcarb. Shouldn't be an issue with a saison strain as your primary fermenter since they tend to super-attenuate. Usually my beers are well below 1.010 by the time I add the brett.

    Good luck, let us know how it works out.
     
    #7 od_sf, Dec 12, 2013
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2013
  8. BuckettOfBeer

    BuckettOfBeer Zealot (506) Mar 19, 2010 Minnesota

    The the reason I wanted to use brett c was because I've heard it described as pineapply and fruity which sounds delicious to me. Though maybe I should embrace the funk a bit more with the Orval strain hmm...

    I was hesitant to bottle with brett due to fear of bottle bombs. But I guess if the primary yeast gets it to a low enough gravity this is not an issue?
     
  9. od_sf

    od_sf Initiate (0) Nov 2, 2010 California

    Correct. If you use a strain like 3711 or 3724, it will take the beer already below 1.010. Those strains on their own will usually finish at 1.003 to 1.006. If your gravity is already below 1.010 when you bottle, you'll be fine. (Having said that, I only ever use Orval empties, just to be safe).
     
  10. jbakajust1

    jbakajust1 Pooh-Bah (2,552) Aug 25, 2009 Oregon
    Pooh-Bah

    Pretty much. I always do 5.25 gallons into the fermenter + kettle/pump/hop loss (1-2 qts) + boil off + grain absorption. You will have to adjust the water/grist ratio on whatever software you use to hit the correct strike temp. What I do is adjust the w/g ratio until my spreadsheet shows that I no longer need sparge water and it works out great.
     
  11. jbakajust1

    jbakajust1 Pooh-Bah (2,552) Aug 25, 2009 Oregon
    Pooh-Bah

    3726 will get you to 1.006 or below as well. I have never used anything other than recycled commercial bottles that I just wash, sanitize, fill, carb, chill, drink, wash, sanitize, store, fill, carb, chill, drink, etc, etc over and over again, never had a bomb.
     
  12. od_sf

    od_sf Initiate (0) Nov 2, 2010 California

    Yep, no reason to fear bombs when you bottle below 1.010. But still, "just to be safe" I drink copious amounts of Orval, to save the empties. It's terrible, I know. :grinning:
     
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  13. SFACRKnight

    SFACRKnight Grand Pooh-Bah (3,348) Jan 20, 2012 Colorado
    Pooh-Bah Trader

    Sparging seems to be covered. As far as yeast goes, I really like wlp670 american farmhouse. It ferments out as quickly as a straight sacc fermentation does, and the brett throws tons of tropical fruit after about 6 months. I used it with a citra/chinook dryhop and won 3rd place in a belgian comp last weekend. I like the simplicity of it. I pitched two vials and let it go at room temp for about 6 weeks in primary, secondaried for 2 weeks on hops and bottled it up. After 8 weeks in the bottle the shit was subliime.
     
  14. reverseapachemaster

    reverseapachemaster Zealot (722) Sep 21, 2012 Texas

    I think you are vastly underhopping that beer. I don't know offhand the IBUs on Le Petit Prince but I'd be surprised if it's less than 25. At 13 IBUs you basically have a beer with the same bitterness as a BMC. If you email JK they will send you a copy of the recipe. I'd take a look at their recipe for a better construction of the hop profile.
     
  15. jbakajust1

    jbakajust1 Pooh-Bah (2,552) Aug 25, 2009 Oregon
    Pooh-Bah

    Agreed, I've never had JK but my Saison's typically have 1oz around 20 mins and 1.5oz at FO, bitter to a BU:GU of .60ish.
     
  16. BuckettOfBeer

    BuckettOfBeer Zealot (506) Mar 19, 2010 Minnesota

    I did think the IBUs may be a bit low, but given the gravity and style of the beer I didn't think it'd be too unbalanced. That being said, more hops is never bad advice! Good suggestions all, thanks.
     
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