Rebel IPA vs Lagunitas?

no marketing for me, just my casual observations. Sorry if I came in hot. Definitely stand by everything I said but maybe the delivery was off. Been under the weather the last few days. Posts will be reduced in size.

Cheers!

 

@DogTown ... anybody who brews a Frank Zappa beer is ok by me! The west is the best...

 

thekids,

Much of your long post distilled down to, "Lag didn't invent the West-coast IPA, but they are on the West coast. BB is on the East coast. It didn't seem to fit with BB's brand that they are now brewing and marketing a West-coast IPA."* Not to speak for azorie, but your brand-heavy focus coupled with mentioning that you work in beer without mentioning how definitely increases the perception you're in branding.

In that vein: are you actually upset with the "off-brand" West-coast IPA push itself, or the way it's being marketed? Small breweries obviously have more flexibility, but I think they are also super reflective of their owner. Everything must meet his satisfaction and fit his viewpoint. But with bigger companies come more viewpoints and opinions added to the mix. How much of the Rebel push is Jim Koch saying, "Fine, I give up: I don't love US hops or the flavor profiles of those beer, but if you guys all love it, we'll give it a shot." Big companies are often painted as unresponsive and inflexible compared to small companies, and rightly so, because it's mostly true. But being more conservative or slower to change doesn't mean it can't happen, or that the company should necessarily be pilloried for doing so. But changing a big, well-known brand does mean that branding considerations are important, and that's where you seem most upset.

*Physical location seems pretty silly to talk about in this specific case, given BB's three breweries spread out across the Eastern half of the US and Lag's two breweries spread across the other half. With these two, it's purely branding.

 

I have been to Lagunitas Brewery and had an amazing time and had some delicious brews. Sam Adams is a good beer, but will not measure up in a taste test, IMO. I don't get involved in all the bullshit of he said, he said, but I totally, 100%, love that Jim and Tony come on here and express themselves. Awesome. For the record, I have had both beers, and Lagunitas beats the Rebel by a landslide. That being said, I WILL drink the rebel.

Bob

 

Just to jump in here. Yes, BBC is publicly traded. Yes, BBC has shareholders. But if you own stock, it's common stock and their common stock is NONVOTING. Jim Koch owns 100% of the Preferrd Stock and those are the VOTING shares - giving him 100% control of BBC and all matters BBC. This is how BBC, while being publicly listed, is still a craft brewery. Koch retains 100% control of all decision making matters, no matter how big or small.

I had an issue with a rebate I sent in a few years ago. I received a response back from customer service that a rebate house handles the rebates, but BBC would cut a check to me to cover the rebate - which was $2.00. But it would take a week or two to get to me because Jim Koch was out of town and he personally signs all BBC checks. I'm a CPA and CFO/Controller who has worked for numerous large companies (some national, some international) - and all the companies I've worked for that are the size of BBC all have printed signatures on the checks. So he likes to see what checks are being cut, what's being paid and how much the checks are. Still doing this to this day, even though it would be easier to just print his signature on the check and delegate review to his CFO.

 

I agree with you that it is great Jim Koch likes to have financial control, but find it very hard to believe he is signing $2 checks. If he actually is, I doubt he has much time to do anything else.
Back to the topic of Rebel vs. Lagunitas IPA, my experience has been Lagunitas makes great beers and BBC does not, but if I hear enough good things about Rebel I will give it a try.

 

Compared the signature on the check to his printed signature and it was a match. Check was hand signed - flip the check over and you can feel the outline where the pressure was applied with a pen to sign. You won't get that with a printed sig. I never cashed it, because it was so cool he actually signed it.

With that said, I don't go out of my way to buy BBC products. When we're having people over or a party, I'll pick it up because I refuse to spend money on ABI/BMC stuff and pretty much all the people we have over drink one variety of SA or other.

Personally, SA was my gateway to craft back in 1994 when I first started working at a beverage retailer. I was 17 going on 18 then. Old Fezziwig became a personal fave when it was first released. But anytime I drink a SA brew now, it seems very watered down to me. Perhaps (with no recipe change) it's my palate that's changed. I'm much more into stouts and BA stouts now then I was back then. I just find that SA brews are not full bodied enough for me.

 

Remove it from the frame, take a pic and e-deposit that piece. Let BBC buy you your first Rebel IPA!

 

I am not doubting you, and maybe I should have said "I find it hard to believe he is signing every $2 check". I am a CPA also and I think you would agree that would not be a wise use of his time.
I moved to Boston in 1988 and Sam Adams was also the Gateway beer for me. Back then, you could only find it in the Boston area and coming from Florida, I had never tasted a beer like it. They deserve a lot of credit for paving the way for the craft beer movement, but I no longer can consider them a top (or even middle) tier "craft" brewery.
And given their size, if they have to resort to the nonsense Tony is accusing them of, they should be ashamed of themselves.

 

I think BBC knows they're behind the curve and are now desperate catch up. Their recent ad campaign where young 20-somethings (presumable hip, craft beer geeks) are surprised they are drinking a Sam Adams just screams desperation to me.

Like many here, Sam Adams was a gateway beer for me into the larger craft beer market. It just doesn't hold up to my taste buds any more. The only time I order a SA is when I'm at a bar/restaurant and there's no good craft alternatives. It (still) beats Bud Light.

 

Ya, I feel real sorry for BBC in their desperate attempt to catch up to craft beer
Something tells me a billionaire in the beer business didn't get there by accident

 

Understandable. Maybe it's all my years working in video production. For the record, I used to manage a small 3bbl Thai Restaurant and brewery in Jackson Hole, WY and am now bartending at a local 20bbl upstart here in the Bay Area. Fantastic beer and amazing people.

The whole package bums me out. It's unfortunate to read the links that Dogtown posted and then see the advertising behind it. Sales reps that can't even sell their beer without first highlighting every other beer in the category to try and sell it is pretty lame and Boston Beer must have some terrible reps. Like I've said all along, it isn't so much the fact that they are making an IPA but the WAY that they are doing it. Seems to be very calculated and an attempt to really immerse itself in a market that typically is not BB territory. They, of course, have every right to immerse themselves in said market, but to me it seems to be a conflicting message that the brand is sending to consumers, specifically knowledgeable craft beer consumers. On the one hand they are one of the founders of the movement, a true success story and are working tirelessly to elevate the craft entity to a loftier place in the world, but on the other hand, are relying on the success of other brand's flavor profiles and marketing to push its latest product onto the shelves. Seems to me to be a bit of a conflict. Whomever's responsibility Rebel was, I feel, kind of dropped the ball on this one and really deviated from who and what Boston Beer really, truly is. But maybe that was the point. We're certainly talking about it.

True, but before both were large, well respected breweries, they had to originate from somewhere. Up until a few years ago, the biggest part of their physical branding was the origins of their respective breweries.

 

You started in you post: “it seems to be a conflicting message”. I appreciated what you had to express in your post but I also very much think that your post was also a conflicting message.

I think it is reasonable to say that there is not too much that is ‘clear cut’ in much was expressed in this thread. I personally think that when it comes to business matters it is not unreasonable for ‘gray lines’ to occur and it can often be that two sides can have reasonable points of view.

Cheers!

 

Now that the first act is over, is anyone willing to opine on how this actually tastes?

Not really sure if I am going to give this a chance on draft. At this time, it would require me to eat at BWW which I am not really too fond of... Might have to wait for it to hit the shelves.

 

I had it back at Thanksgiving in Connecticut. It was good, I liked it a lot. Quite sessionable and flavorful. Would not mind having it again.

And I don't think it's so much that Sam Adams is trying to catch up to other craft brewers but more that the younger brewers at BBC are getting more of a say.

 

It's okay. Nothing special, but at a restaurant like Applebee's, Chili's, etc. it would be a very welcome sight. I'd say it's worth a shot. As is the case with most beer, some will love it and some will hate it.

 

Here's the thing: until Lagunitas is distributed in Indiana, I cannot say there's a competition. Now, when I drink a brew at the local BW3, I opt for 3 Floyds, so nobody need shed a tear. But still, I'd be happy to see brews like Lagunitas Sucks compete head to head with the other brews, including BBC, in my backyard and see who wins on the merits. Right now, though, Lagunitas has ceded the field, so I'll probably have to try Rebel IPA instead (because most places don't have Pride & Joy on tap).

 

Provided its a blind taste test, I'd put my money on Rebel (vs Lag IPA)

 

is anyone else flabbergasted you wasted time sending in a $2.00 rebate? I guess that's why you might be wealthy and I'm poor.

 

I think its obvious the 2 dollar check was an exception and not the norm. In fact its clear in his initial story.