India Pale Lagers (IPL)

I agree with steve about the palate fatigue from too many hops. I have deliberately stayed out of this thread until now as IPL's are certainly not my favorite. I believe the high abv changes the flavor and drinkablility such that you cannot call it a lager anymore. I have no evidence to offer just my personal preferences. The few times I have had one these that was well done they were more IPA than lager and the lager yeast contributed an earthy smoothness to the drink like in the Jack's Abby beer. The idea of a lager though as being clean and crisp is completely undermined by a high alcohol content. Alcohol adds a sweetness and a touch in the mouthfeel that is not "lager" and is certainly not "crisp."

 

Lots have already mentioned it but Mass Rising from Jack's Abbey is awesome and I wish that when I was in MA that I had bought more of it. Love how drinkable it is whilst packing such an awesome hop punch. Gonna definately try hoponious union on my next Trillium trip!

 

Let it be known for the record that Swedes have been adding American hops to a hoppy pale lager beer since 1997 . Been a while since I had that particular beer though so I need to revisit it and see if it would fit the bill as an "IPL", or if it's more akin to an "APA-style pale lager" (Although the specs for Samuel Adam's Double Agent makes it seem as though the IPL-style is broader than the regular AIPA category, so this beer might fit the bill).

To be fair the lager beer family is pretty broad as far as flavor profiles and abvs go, although some IPLs are probably pushing the envelope quite a bit when it comes to abv from an historical perspective. But if one looks at Bavarian lager beer for example, in the 1890s a lager beer in Münich could have an original gravity of over 14% whilst having an abv of 4.8%.

That's a pretty low degree of attenuation, and seeing as how the Bavarian lager beer wasn't hopped the way a pilsner was, one has to imagine that such a beer would be percieved as pretty darn sweet by modern tastes. In comparison a modern Oktoberfest beer typically has an original gravity of 13.5% plato, but they ferment out to be around 6% abv. If anything most IPLs are probably more highly attenuated than a traditional bock beer.

I personally prefer a dry beer, and pilsners are my favorite style(s), but looking back at history it's obvious that lager beer isn't limited to being dry and crisp. The dominance of the pilsner-style, and the downfall of the Bavarian lager beer style has perhaps skewed people's perception of lager beer to some extent.

 

But do you not agree that the darker color and the more fruity malt hold the alchol better than the light colored lager which is the attempt by these IPL's? I had a beer called samichlaus whch is the highest abv lager known. No lager qualities were scrificed for the abv of this beer. It drank perfectly and cleanly. It's fantastic. Have that one and then have these others and tell me those are not mutts compared to this thouroughbred.

 

Fruit esters are developed more thru warm fermentation of yeast, certain yeast strains, or fruitier varieties of hops, not malt.

A perfect example is that Samichlaus also made a lighter version of their Doppelbock and it held/hid the 14% ABV very well too.

 

Yes ! So far my personal fav of the style. Hey Great Lakes . . . Please bottle this again !

 

I'm not so sure using a lager yeast really adds anything to a hoppy beer that using an ale yeast doesn't accomplish. In fact as I've already mentioned (either in this thread or another), I think the top IPAs are simply better than the top IPLs.

What it does do is separate your beers from the top IPAs. This allows them to be in a separate category and thus gain more attention and recognition. For example, Kiwi Rising could never compete with Heady Topper if an ale yeast was used to brew the former. Kind of a nice marketing ploy if you ask me. Nonetheless, they're very tasty beers, and brewed quite well.

 

Agree completely. I enjoy JA for their hop focused beers, not because they make great lagers.

JA Jabby brau has improved since the beginning, but still a long way to go to match the depth of malt that German brewers bring to their helles. And Saxonator is quite lacking (thin, lacking depth, a little homebrew like yeast twang) when compared to Andech's Dbock or Weheinstephaner Korbinian which both are priced the same or lower.

 

The one IPL I have tried, Sam Adams Double Agent, was anything but clean...from both a yeasty bite and the hops. After just one, my palate was well on its way to being pretty worn out.

 

And now a break from the Jack's Abby show for a word from our sponsor....

Peak Organic Fresh Cut Pils is also another great hoppy lager - and like Otter Creek Citra Mantra, lets the lager character shine along side the hop character.

 

Exactly.

 

Your right, I should have said King of Hoppy Lagers. And while I do appreciate and respect the traditional, I for one do not enjoy them at all.

 

I agree and hope this is the where the American lager (hoppy lager, whatever) trend is heading.

 

So something misconceived is what a lager is. The only difference between a Lager IPA and non Lager IPA is one uses lager yeast. This means they ferment the beer over a longer amount of time at colder temps. So in essence lager quality is just that the yeast does not contribute to a flavor profile of the beer.

 

So we are aware saying lager is like saying ale being it is a generic term... Jack's abbey is not brewing Lager Beers or really any style of lagered beer... they are Lagering Beers it is a style of brewing not a type of beer.

EDIT : Except the true lagered beers you are talking about such as Schwarzbiers as they just made one with Evil Twin.... so they make many styles of beer all being lagered... no need to get upset

 

I like to call them American Pils.

 

Well I tend to separate booziness from sweetness since I think they are two separate tastes, maybe I misread the post I was responding to. I've seen you question the presence of sweetness in lager beer in other posts, so I figured that you were talking about sweetness this time around also. In my experience, a high abv combined with a high degree of attenuation, and relatively low wort strenght results in booziness (case in point, high abv macro pale lager beers). I see these IPLs as a different type of beer, since the wort strenghts, for the 9% abv ones, is much higher than you have with the extra strong lager beers. There should be enough sweetness and body there to handle the alcohol, similar to an IPA or DIPA. But there might be bad examples of the style, I've personally never had a proper IPL, but I'm interested in trying one.

I've had what I would call APA-style pale lager beers, where the abv is akin to a pilsner or pale lager, but the hops are American, and I really enjoy those beers, just as I enjoy IPAs and DIPAs. And since I think a hallmark of American craft ales is that they are clean, I imagine that American made IPLs are similarly clean, which is a plus in my book as I prefer clean beers as a general rule (although I really enjoyed Chimay Dorée Goud with its lemony Belgian yeast notes).

 

When they open in NC Sierra Nevada is going to brew a beer with Victory. Here's hoping it's SNPL. The same as SNPA but fermented with the yeast used for Prima Pils.

 

Pale Lager, or India Pale Lager? I can't see using the exact SNPA recipe and replacing it with a lager yeast. SNPA is smooth and crisp already, with fruit esters mostly from hops. I would think swapping out yeasts wouldn't make a terribly different beer.

'Course, doesn't mean I won't try it.

 

I take it he is being sarcastic .