I've got a buddy who wants me to brew a Hefeweizen. I like Hefeweizen but I also like Belgian Wit. Got me to thinking, given the decent capacity of my system, could I make a hybrid beer (not a partigyle) that would produce both from the same wort by using two different boil kettles. I mapped out a plan but am a bit worried that this will turn into a "spork" in the sense that it will results in "a pretty good spoon" plus "a pretty good fork" rather than two exceptional brews. Let me know your opinion based on the plan. Kettle additions, yeast choices, fermentation temperatures, etc. are all straight forward. Since I will be boiling the resulting wort in two separate boil kettles and fermenting the two resulting beers in different fermenters with different yeasts in spaces that have independent temperature control, I'm not worried about that. So I'll just post the grain bill and mash schedule for now. If anybody wants the entire recipe / strategy just let me know. P.S. No need for "why don't you just brew two separate batches" replies. That is obviously the other option and the way to avoid the spork like quality possibility. But if the feedback I receive here is so overwhelmingly negative with regards to the hybrid idea, I just may do that. That aside, I'm more looking for feedback / worries / critiques / suggestions as to the best hybrid recipe to pull off my goal of making a good hefe and a good wit from one wort. My current biggest worries are coming up with a grain profile / mash schedule that rides the line btw the two styles as best as possible. My 4 specific worries are: 1. I'm not sure if the torrified wheat and oats (wit inspired) will detract from the hefe in any way? Usually I'd just use wheat malt in my hefe.... 2. I'm not sure if only having 12% of the 41% of wheat in the recipe being torrified will take away from the wit in any way? Usually I'd use ALL torrified or flaked wheat in my wit..... 3. Will the fuerillic acid rest (hefe inspired) detract from the wit? 4. Are my mash salt additions too much for these styles? I'm doing them more for ph (I have to learn to embrace lactic / phosphoric acid) and am worried that these styles probably call for softer water...... Hefewit 18 gallon Batch GRAIN PROFILE 14# pilsner (40.4%) 10# wheat malt (28.9%) 4# torrified wheat (11.9%) 3# flaked oats (8.9%) 2# rice hulls (5.9%) 1# melanoiden malt (3%) 10oz acid malt (1.9%) MASH SALTS (100% RO Water) 8g gypsum 12g calcium chloride 7g epsom salt RESULTING WATER PROFILE 81 Ca 10 Mg 0 Na 93 Cl 115 SO4 0.80 Chloride / Sulfate Ratio NOTE: kettles have 0.25g of dead space, so you will see my mash water heating volumes are 0.25g larger than the amount I actually add to the MLT 9g strike @ 119F = 110F fuerilic acid rest step (20 minutes) in 20g MLT (after 20 minute fuerilic acid rest add....) 7.5g infusion @ 212F (from 15g BK to the 20g MLT) = 151F sacc rest step (60 minutes) in 20g MLT 12g first runnings collected (in 15g BK) (after collecting 1st runnings in 15g BK add....) 10.75g sparge (from 15g HLT to the 20g MLT) @ 198F = 168F mash out (10 minutes) in 20g MLT 10.5g second runnings collected (in 15g HLT) recirc 2x15g kettles to mix worts for 5+ minutes then stop when.... 11.25g of wort in each 15g kettle after recirc preboil gravity hopefully around 1.043 on both
This should work pretty well since both styles are so yeast-driven. Minerals look ok to me. Strictly speaking, the melanoidin looks out of place but that is up to your palate. Subbing flaked wheat for the oats might make for a crisper hefe without detracting from the wit too much, but I've never used oats in a hefe, so who knows? Overall, looks like you planned well.
I think your on the money with your analysis that this will make an Ok Hefe and an Ok wit, but nothing exceptional Wheat malt does not have a place in the flavor profile of a wit, and the low percentage of unmalted wheat will make the beer less creamy, the hefe will not be impacted as much from the torrified wheat as its a low % and will be covered up by everything else personally Im not that big of a fan of hefe's and would brew the Wit to style, and tell my buddy to deal with it.....
Thanks for the initial replies guys. I'm thinking, as is, it will make a better hefe than a wit. Getting a good "wit quality" out of this hybrid truly is the bigger challenge. At the very least I think I'll up the torrified wheat by a pound and lower the malted wheat by a pound, but it will still make for a better hefe than a wit. As for the melanoiden, I usually like to add a bit of munich (high in melanoidens) to my wheat beers (as well as Kolsch) as I like the subtle enhancement of the bready character it brings to the malt profile. Truth be told, I simply have a bunch of melanoiden malt that I just never seem to use and was thinking of tossing a pound into this recipe for kicks. Maybe I'll just go with the munich after all and save the melanoiden malt (yet again!) for a different brew. Doing so will, at the very least, drop the srm from 4.0 to 3.5 which will aesthetically benefit the "wit side" of things a touch.
[rhetorical question] how different are they, really? [/rhetorical question] I really appreciate the thoroughness of your post, and the obvious thought you put into it. I don't know the answers, but you definitely get some cool points for avoiding the "I'm new, should I start with an imperial stout? and can I expect to drink it by the middle of next week?" type threads.
Save the yeast cake from the hefe for a dunkelweizen or weizenbock. The melanoidin will be great there.
Well I just checked my inventory and, based on that, looks like I'll be going with: GRAIN PROFILE 14# pilsner (40.4%) 8# 7oz torrified wheat (24.4%) 3# 9oz wheat malt (10.3%) 2# unmalted wheat berries (5.8%) 3# flaked oats (8.7%) 2# rice hulls (5.8%) 1# dark munich (2.9%) 10oz acid malt (1.8%) Kind of glad about my inventory, as it will reduce my malted wheat and boost my unmalted wheat considerably. Should give this experiment more of a shot to see how well I can ride the line between the two styles. The pilsner and wheat contributions are now even, the wheat malt has been reduced to a level that MIGHT not have too much of a negative influence on the wit, and the real mystery is now more a matter of what effect the torrified wheat and flaked oats will have on the hefeweizen IMHO.
Both styles are yeast driven, yet wheat malt has a surprisingly strong impact on the flavor profile of a beer, I see that flavor being more of a distraction in a wit, while the relative lack of that flavor being less important in a hefe Oats, while not lining up with BJCP (who cares anyway), IMO wont really impact the hefe much, and may add a nice fee to it Good luck and let us know how it goes!
Will do thanks! Hefewit got brewed today btw. GRAIN PROFILE 14# pilsner (40.4%) 8# 7oz torrified wheat (24.4%) 3# 9oz wheat malt (10.3%) 2# unmalted wheat berries (5.8%) 3# flaked oats (8.7%) 2# rice hulls (5.8%) 1# dark munich (2.9%) 10oz acid malt (1.8%) MASH PROFILE - 20 minute feurlic acid rest around 110F @ 1.055 qt / pound - stepped up to 144F @ 1.934 qt / pound and slowly ramped up to 157F over a 30 minute time frame - did a 10 minute mash out @ 170F - 22.5 gallon preboil volume @ 1.044 SG - 82% mash extraction efficiency - 18 gallons into fermenters @ 1.049 after 90 minute boil - 73% brew house efficiency 90 MINUTE BOIL PROFILE Hefe: 1.25oz Hallertaur @ 90 min 10.6 ibu's WLP 380 (Hefeweizen IV) pitched / fermenting @ 63F Wit: 1.25oz Hallertaur @ 90 min 1oz sorachi ace @ 5 min 13.2 ibu's 21g Indian coriander @ 1 min 7g each: bitter orange peel, tangerine peel, lime peel, grapefruit peel @ 1 min 1 gram: grains of paradise @ 1 min WLP 400 (Belgian Wit) pitched @ 63 / fermenting @ 68F
I've got my "hefewit" experiment in fermenters now and they are just finishing up. I made an appropriate starter but opted not to oxygenate the wort (wanted to see if it would enhance the yeast character) and it has slightly slowed the process down a bit. I opted to rouse the yeast a couple of times as a precaution. Fermentation has gone as follows: WIT: (WLP400) pitched at 64F, ramped up to 68F for initial fermentation (OG 1.049) day 3 - gravity only down to 1.030 at that point - ramped up to 71F day 7 - gravity down to 1.023 day 12 - gravity down to 1.013 I'm going to rack it to secondary tonight and add some fresh zest. Would like for it to drop another 1-3 points (1.012 is the high end of the style range) and assume the former is what will occur since I'm taking it off of the yeast cake. HEFE: (WLP380) pitched at 63F and fermented at 63F for initial fermentation (OG 1.049) day 3 - gravity down to 1.020, ramped up to 65F day 7 - gravity down to 1.018, ramped up to 67F day 12 - gravity down to 1.017, ramped up to 71F gonna keep it on the yeast cake longer and hope it drops to 1.014 or lower. Both hydro samples taste good so far!
Kegged both beers today (day 19 of fermentation I believe). Wit stopped at 1.012 FG & Hefeweizen at 1.014 FG. Both at the upper end of the style range. Considering my mash schedule and choice not to oxygenate, I'm cool with that. Hydro samples are quite tasty.
