Your thoughts on Alpine's decision?

Because of the collectible nature of the beers sold on eBay (NOT INTENDED FOR CONSUMPTION) the absolute legal nature of the practice remains in the grey area. Please refrain from patronizing and name calling when you either offer a completely contradictory response or just whip up a generic CA alcohol law webpage that does not correctly cite any statutes or specifics regarding the auction via ebay of a collectible container of beer.
*obligatory rofl bullshit idiot wtf lol

 

I doubt that brewers think they still OWN the beer.

Say you go to a popular restaurant. You could argue that it would be within your rights to package up all 12 courses of your tasting menu, ship it across the country to a buddy who couldn't get reservations, and let him reheat the food. I doubt the chef would appreciate his food being presented in that way.

This situation is not dissimilar. He is passionate about his craft and wants to control the environs in which his beers are enjoyed.

We enter into social contracts with others all the time. While we are perpetually "free" to do as we wish, there are consequences to our actions, particularly when they run contrary to someone else's expectations of how we are to behave. If you care about that person, you tend to conform your actions to the terms of the "contract."

Bottom line, he said don't do it. Someone did it, and now he's following through. Good for him.

 

To me it comes off with a real grade school feel. I see the point, and mosdef once you say you are going to do "Y" thing if "X" action happens, you better do it lest you lose credibility.

In the end I think it only hurts themselves by limiting their market exposure and their local followers by not giving them the beer they obviously love. Sad.

 

honestly, your post was more patronizing than mine; i said " wat " and " wtf " but didn't insult you. take it easy thin-skin.

and try to pull the " collectible " / " not intended for consumption " card as an unlicensed store selling " collectible bottles " to the local community. weren't new glarus bottles pulled from a new york bar last year or the year before because they weren't properly distributed to that state? it's not like shenanigans like these always turn a blind eye. i'd say your best bet is the scope (a few hundred bucks of profit a year isn't even worth prosecuting).

 

I was responding to you & pinto. And these "shenanigans" have seen a blind eye for the entire history of eBay. The mere fact that the ABC hasn't restricted the sale of alcohol on eBay goes to show that it is much more a grey area than people seem to think and claim repeatedly without a seconds thought. Which is why eBay threads like this always work me up - they are ripe with conjecture and personal opinion backed up with insults.

 

or it could mean that (like jaywalking) it is not something worth enforcing.

do you agree that shipping alcohol through usps is illegal? if you do so and a bottle breaks in transit, you probably won't be prosecuted. so does that now mean it's a gray area? revisit your assumptions.

in some ways you're backpedaling from the balls-out statement that " it's not illegal " to " it hasn't been shown to be illegal. " i'd agree with the latter. but i'd bet that the first prosecuted case for it wouldn't show it to be legal.

 

The problem is the people who buy on ebay. I have so much money so I can buy whatever I want for the price I can afford. The truth is this is not how America works. Sure I have money and can buy pounds of marijuana but when the Californians mail me the good stuff they try to lock me up.

 

Well at least we can agree on that.

 

Are these lyrics to a song?

 

I work at a restaurant and if somebody orders food to-go and pays for it...it's no longer mine and I don't have a say in what they do with that food. If they want to eat, throw away, sell or trade my product then that's their business. If anything the fact that so many people across the country and possibly world want to get a taste of this brew should be a great compliment to the work they are doing in Alpine. Instead he comes off a bit petulant and certainly unprofessional in his berating of people that paid good money for his product. There isn't a high quality beer made that isn't sold at some point on the internet. What if all brewers took this approach...where would we all be as beer lovers. Relegated to only being allowed to enjoy a beer if it's local. I don't believe for a second that anybody at the brewery actually cares about the legality of the practice. The angry rant only was posted after he discovered his beloved beer being sold on Ebay. In my opinion it's very bad form on the part of Alpine Brewing.

 

Beer has a longstanding tradition with the Judeo-Christian-Anglo-Saxon establishment, much less it has walked the chronological walk from the Mayflower, to prohibition and the folly thereof, to decriminalization and regulation. Marijuana (all drugs pretty much) was made illegal because it was foreign to that establishment, we still are yet to hit the tipping point w/ the folly of its prohibition and so on. They're different.

But, the problem with your analysis, is that ebay is not the black market free for all you make it out to be. Walter can get you a toe (with nail polish!). Ebay cannot. You can come to Nevada and get an AR-15 w/ a 25 round clip. Ebay nor CA can get you those. Prostitutes? 24/7 liquor? Gambling? The state of Nevada allows more things than ebay does.

And 'the truth is' $$$ is how America works, for better and/or worse to a certain degree.. You really think internet gaming (or marijuana or whatever) is a big deal? Well the feds go after those businesses. . . because they take $$$ away from American entities in conjunction w/ being 'illegal'. Nobody is losing $$$ on beer trading/ ebaying despite the argument its illegal. But casinos, big pharm, BMC does lose business to marijuana and online Cayman Islands casinos. Businesses are making money in a more tolerable way related to beer: Ebay, Paypal, Fedex, UPS . . . these are major companies making major $$$ from beer auctions, trades, despite their alleged illegality. Couple the lack of definite verbage in regulations/statutes, w/ the aforementioned realities, you can see why beer trades/grey market sales aren't about to have the ATF busting down doors at ebay/fedex etc. . .

 

Words written by one who will always be an employee and never an employer (and will complain that it's the employer's fault).
I was there for the release. A line well over 100 strong was there- check Alpine's facebook - it continues much further. It's gotten worse every time.
Or, should I say better for Pat Mcilhenney and his wonderful family. People were allowed two growlers - and six bottles. Each person could acquire nearly 3 Gallons of it. Sure, I'm sad to see it go as an option, but besides the brewery and briefly at O'Brien's - Expo was simply unavailable. From what I can see, fewer than 30 bottles made it onto eBay. That's well under 1% of what was produced.
On to growlers:
I think it was $22 per growler fill. That amounts to about $660 per keg. Simply put, even at that price Pat is losing money compared to what he can get from bars in Southern California and beyond . Even at $660/keg(which is likely quite high), bars are getting a bargain. At 220-240+ 8-ounce pours by bars at $5-6 each, that keg alone generates revenue of $1100 - $1440 easily. That allows a lot more people to get some and drives additional revenue from food. Much more democratic - and profitable. Much easier distribution too. Six people at Alpine filling growlers for hours on end is exhausting. Sure, they make some tips, but it is a huge hassle. Keeping it around longer for the restaurant at the brewery and more people having access means a greater base of people than those who can rush up there midday for it. Since they're expanding, they will eventually need more people to buy their beer. Blaming eBay and some people in LA is window dressing. When they release EH in July-August this year, they just need more people to have a chance at it. Follow the money.

 

Well somehow I responded to Levitation and managed to include my words in his quote. These are my words:

If I were on the hypothetical case, I would argue its not illegal. I doubt 'alcohol' is defined so extensively that it excludes/mentions "collectible bottles" or "yeast samples". I would also point out the numerous law enforcement agencies mailing off urine and blood samples via usps to crime labs (dui's/probation/parole) for analysis often contain alcohol, and are probably not excluded from the statute, yet is never prosecuted. Hence, the statute is written w/ a lack of clarity, depriving persons of notice (due process) as to what is actually prohibited, and permits an impermissible amount of discretion for law enforcement to prosecute selectively for impermissible reasons. Grey area, rule of lenity, let my people live. . .

Furthermore, the 21st amendment (and 10th, and lack of federal police power in the US Constitution) appears to leave regulation of alcohol to the States, thereby precluding any Commerce Clause rationale for the statute (shipping via USPS).

Throw every argument against the wall, one of them could stick.

 

Other breweries are doing similar practices to promote opportunities to their local customers instead of a more outreaching approach. KtG is a good example as it rolls out soon...promoted that way to benefit the locals first. I get his frustration completely.

 

There are 1000 ways to justify breaking the law. The truth is everybody is paying taxes on the beer but the guy who is illegally shipping it through the mail. Obviously nobody cares enough to stop ebay that does not make it right.

 

So is this officially the first "runaway train" thread on the new forums yet? If not, keep it up boys, yer doin' great!

 

Hey, he said what he would do if he saw it on ebay, now he's backing it up. Pat's a solid guy and a hell of a brewer. I doubt anything will stop people from trying to get paid from beer hype. It only takes a couple douche bags to screw things up for the rest of us. He's doing the only thing within his control to stop it and I agree

 

I love that Pat is sticking to his guns. Even more, I love that the majority of the votes coming in on this topic support Alpine's decision. It shows that the majority of BA's stand behind the brewers and understand the local-centric leanings.

 

Some people are looking wayyyy too into this.

 

You know you're full of shit and there is nothing collectible about the container. Have breweries reproduce the container but filled with water and sell it on ebay. It wont sell like the ones full of beer because people are after the beer, not the container and the seller and buyer alike know this. The value isn't in the container period. If you believe your BS then there's nothing else for me to say.