What will be a classic Belgian Ale yeast ?

Thanks for chiming in Yoda!

 

Jeff, WLP515 does not sound very ‘Belgiany’ to me:

“WLP515 Antwerp Ale Yeast

Clean, almost lager like Belgian type ale yeast. Good for Belgian type pales ales and amber ales, or with blends to combine with other Belgian type yeast strains. Biscuity, ale like aroma present. Hop flavors and bitterness are accentuated. Slight sulfur will be produced during fermentation, which can give the yeast a lager like flavor profile.”

I also took note of “ … or with blends to combine with other Belgian type yeast strains”.

In the book Brewing Classic Styles, Jamil Zainasheff describes a Belgian Pale Ale as: A moderately malty, fruity, somewhat spicy, easy drinking, copper colored ale.”

Do you prefer a Belgian Pale Ale with restrained esters/phenols?

Cheers!

 

Wyeast Golden Strong.

It takes a long time for the yeast to flocc. out. Before this happens the beer will seem very bitter/spicy (phenols), but when it does, it gives a clean belgian flavor, and crisp beer because of its attenuation and it still produces CO2 while sitting in the bottle, making it highly-effervescent.

 

Fond memories of drinking De Koninck in the shadow of the cathedral in Antwerp. Not phenolic that I remember, it does taste a little Belgiany. Palm is another Pale Ale, not too over the top. Those are the ales you see the regulars drink in Belgium after work, when they want more than one.

He asked for Belgian Pale Ale, which is this style. Not big on phenolics.

http://www.bjcp.org/2008styles/style16.php#1b

Here is the Wyeast equivalent. Schelde is the river in Antwerp, runs close to the De Koninck brewery.

https://www.wyeastlab.com/Pc1q2010.cfm

 

Here is the overall impression for 16B: “A fruity, moderately malty, somewhat spicy, easy-drinking, copper-colored ale.”

My interpretation of “somewhat spicy” = phenols.

The White Labs description for WLP515 does not sound like it will yield “fruity” and “somewhat spicy” to me. Do you get a different flavor profile from WLP515 than what White Labs publishes for this yeast?

Cheers!

 

I have never used either. Low to no phenolics for the style, some pepper notes are OK. These are easy drinking every day ales. I think Gordon Strong published a recipe for a De Koninck clone, don't remember what yeast it was. Page 205 from his book according to the web.

 

Also mentioned tin BJCP 16B: Yeasts prone to moderate production of phenols are often used but fermentation temperatures should be kept moderate to limit this character.

 

Looked Gordon's recipe. He uses WLP 515. Saw BCS, and Jamilm uses WLP 515 for 16b, ferment at 66F.

 

I think a good De Koninck clone would be mostly pilsner malt, some vienna, saaz hops and either wlp 515 or Wyeast 3655.

 

I don't understand why you bolded that part but ignored:
Aroma: Distinctive floral or spicy, low to moderate strength hop character optionally blended with background level peppery, spicy phenols.
(also, note "spicy" in the hop aroma...)
Flavor: May have an orange- or pear-like fruitiness, though not as fruity/citrusy as many other Belgian ales....The hop bitterness is medium to low, and is optionally complemented by low amounts of peppery phenols.
Ingredients: Yeasts prone to moderate production of phenols are often used but fermentation temperatures should be kept moderate to limit this character

As stated earlier I use this yeast whenever I can. It's great.
cheers--
--Michael

 

Michael I was pressed for time so I mostly concentrated on the overall impression line.

You made mention that you are a fan of WLP515. Is your impression of this yeast consistent with the White Labs description (in particular: “Clean, almost lager like Belgian type ale yeast”)?

Cheers!

Jack

 

This is baffling to me, the OP asks for a yeast to brew a classic Begian pale ale, the yeast in question is sourced from a classic commercial Belgian pale ale, and you question it because it doesn't match your interpretation of the BJCP guidelines (i.e. your interpretation of an interpretation). Mind boggling!

To the OP, I've never used 515 so can't comment on it, but I have used 510 (Orval) and really like it.

 

I have an opinion that a Belgian Pale Ale should have some esters (fruity flavors) and some phenols (spicy flavors). This description is consistent with the Brewer’s Association style guidelines for a Belgian Pale Ale (and the style guidelines for the European Beer Star Awards as well). It just so happens that the BJCP style guidelines make mention of this as well.

I am still curious whether the description of WLP515 of clean, lager like is consistent with other homebrewers experiences.

Cheers!

 

I have drank many commercian Belgian pale ales and they are mildly phenolic and estery, but nowhere near as phenolic and estery as say, most Trappist style beers, they are in fact much cleaner by comparison. Regardless, the point is that the yeast in question comes from a classic commercial example of Belgian pale ale, so to opine that the yeast will not produce a beer consistent with the style is just silly.

 

“ …they are mildly phenolic and estery” sounds good to me!

“Clean, almost lager like..” doesn’t sound good to me.

I am hopeful that Michael (@udubdawg) will chime in with his personal experiences with WLP515.

Cheers!

 

"Clean, almost lager like Belgian type ale yeast."

I do not find this description at all incongruous with the style description. In the context of Belgian beers, Belgian pale ales ARE clean, almost lager like, crisp drinkable beers...in the same way that some very pale English bitters (aka golden bitters) have been described as lager like...even though they still show mild English ale type esters.

 

“Clean, almost lager like” means no perceptible esters (or other ale yeast derived flavors).

I brew lagers and they are crisp and clean due to the lack of ale yeast derived flavors (e.g., esters).

Cheers!

 

Ok Jack, you win, "almost lager like Belgian type ale yeast" means a yeast that has no perceptible esters and produces beer exactly like a lager, theres no other way to interpret that.

 

As the guideline IDs De Koninck as the #1 example, this yeast seems like a good choice. However, I think this is one of those deals where there is not really a style but a wide range of beers that are numerical fits to the guidelines and come from Belgium.

You said "somewhat spicy" implies phenols to you, but that interpretation introduces a blatant self-contradiction in the guideline, which reads:

"Fruity and lightly to moderately spicy with a soft, smooth malt and relatively light hop character and low to very low phenols"

It appears to be another example of confusing BJCP guidelines; perhaps the spicy term means something other than phenolic in this sense?

Especially with this style, I see license to brew it the way you like it. I prefer the yeast character of the Ardennes strain to the De Koninck strain; however, I think in a competition this could be dinged as out of style by a law-abiding BJCP judge.

 

The first time I used this yeast I wondered if they had packaged a lager by mistake.
the sulfur during production, not covered up by a huge fruity profile (yes it cleans up quickly) many Belgians exude. Very faint phenolics in some batches, but after some cold conditioning easily covered up by the hop character. It also liked to build a krauesen, then fall to the bottom and go to work vigorously (3726, another favorite of mine, does this even more markedly. by the way, 3726 can make a great BPA too, but you've got to keep it quite cool and go a little heavier on the toasty/biscuit/caramunich type malts as it'll make a nice tart fruit-forward malt-in-background very low phenolic saison if you let it.) From someone who was used to 3787 trying to jump out of the fermenter, 515 was more than enough different to wonder if I was doing something wrong.

I don't have a link or anything, but I keep thinking BPAs were aimed at competing with lagers. (I'm certain there are roots to the "style" that greatly predate lagers, but for the moment let's limit our discussion to late 19th century and on examples.) If that really happened, then it makes sense that it would be fairly clean.

in terms of other BJCP pale ales, I'd say that "pale ale" brings an image of a hop-forward beer. Unfortunate, but I don't think calling it Belgian Amber Ale would help anything. But in terms of comparison, I'd say 16B's malt/hop balance is certainly closer to 10B than 10A. Super drinkable, good with food, maybe a bit like a patersbier with more malt character - I'd never made this style before Gordon's book, but now I have it on hand almost constantly. I don't enter it often as I hate competing with 16Es but I have on occasion gotten a silver medal and taken down everything but the triple Amarillo hopped and 100% Brett with mahlab Belgian Specialty.

cheers--
--Michael