Rye Saison Recipe Critique

at only 1# of rye you dont need to worry about conversion. Ive brew beers with 60/40 pils to unmalted wheat and never ever had a conversion issue. With your recipe there is no need for worry about enzymatic power

 

I agree with the above, drop the crystal. I'd agree with sub'ing a more kilned base malt (though caramunich is not crystal munich). I usually use 10% Vienna.

2-row 75%
Vienna 10%
Wheat 10%
Rye 5%

Something like that.

Mash at whatever, the 3711 will dry things out. I usually go by the Troester data as above.

I like my saison with alot of hops, though a more restrained BU:GU ratio is called for, as the dryness of the beer will accentuate the bittness. I usually do 0.6-ish:1 (and FWH'ed at that).

I love 3711, btw, though sometimes it can be a little flabby especially if the ferm temp was too low. Ocassionally I'll mix the Dupont & Thierrez strains as a primary ferment to get more pepper, but ensure dryness.

Speaking of fermentaiton temperature, I'd pitch in the 70s and let this thing go, ideally well into the 80s, even heating to the 90s for a few days.

 

With 7 lbs of pilsner malt you don't have to worry about enzymatic power at all.

 

He's talking about flakes rye, which has no diastatic power, you're talking about rye malt (roggenbier), which has very high diastatic power. Two very different animals. That said, enzymatic power is not a concern with this recipe.

 

I must have missed that somewhere, I was just going off of the recipe in the first post.

 

I would add some brett later in the fermentation. If you do this later it will give you a dryer Saison without affecting the flavor. This way you could still experiment with the cara while using something that will still convert complex sugars.

 

I would think that adding Brett would affect the flavor. And aroma.

 

If you added brett at the beginning of fermentation you would be absolutely right. Fermentation takes place in stages. At the end of fermentation almost no flavor is added by introducing a new strain. So if you are extremely close to your terminal gravity and add another strain the only purpose it serves is to ferment the more complex sugars that other strains cannot. I really recommend reading Yeast by Chris White and Jamil Zainasheff, it will change the way you think about yeast as an ingredient.

 

With Brett, it depends. Ever had Orval? That beer has Brett introduced with the priming sugar. Not much Brett when you have one fresh in Belgium. Can become Brett dominated if it is aged a long time.

 

This way of adding brett is a little different. Instead of letting the brett ferment and fall to the trub before transfer, you are adding it and feeding it more sugar and leaving it in the bottle. Belgian styles are known for high carbonation, and a very long bottle conditioning phase. As you said under good conditions you wont taste the brett, but the same could be said about regular yeast. If you leave it for too long you probably won't enjoy the flavor.

 

Let me rephrase that: Adding Brett at any time will affect flavor. No need to read the books, just taste beers I've made. Adding Brett at primary, secondary and at bottling will eventually affect flavor. Brett will ferment "unfermentable" long chain dextrins, way longer than the usual maltotriose chains.

 

I guess we will agree to disagree. I've had success with this method, and will continue to use it when i deem it appropriate. I'm sorry you haven't.

 

brett does more than much long-chain sugars. it also transforms sacch by-products into new flavor compounds. in fact, it's this transformation that accounts for most classic brett flavors. saison yeasts product a lot of these "brett flavor precursors" (4-vinyl), which is why brett'ed saisons can have such a strong flavor - despite there being very few to no sugars there for them to eat. brett can survive on a lot more than just sugars.

this post from Chad Y gives a better (and more authoritative) explanation: http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f127/understanding-brett-flavors-298943/

 

Brett can convert esters from the sacch fermentation and a host of other compounds that are generated post fermentation with saccharomyces in addition to dextrins. Brett also can produce acid. Look at the flavor development in English stock ales as an example.

I'd suggest you reread yeast and also this link about brettanomyces:

http://www.brettanomycesproject.com/dissertation/introduction/

Stolen from post above mine:

http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f127/understanding-brett-flavors-298943/

Good conditions? He's saying if you drink it really fresh, the brett hasn't had a chance to start working on the esters, dextrins, etc., whereas aged Orval has had time for development of noticeable brett flavor. Orval is the classic example of a belgian pale ale with Brett (People enjoy the flavor of it).

 

http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f127/understanding-brett-flavors-298943/
This link is explaining his experience with getting less noticeable flavors from Brett if it is added at the end of primary v. secondary or bottling.

Brett isn't really made to emulate English stock ales as much as the process of English barrel aging. I'm not saying no one should like Orval. But if the brewery wanted it to taste more like Brett they wouldn't release it as soon. I have no doubt that consumers enjoy that flavor(I'm one of them), but with any type of fermenting agent how you prepare its environment matters.

 

I just read Chad's post at your link. Good read. But he doesn't come anywhere near saying that adding Brett at the end of primary produces a clean/neutral flavor profile.

 

He absolutely doesn't. What he says is that the flavor is masked by the compounds that have already been produced. As opposed to secondary or bottling where the flavor would almost be in the front.

 

When he talks about flavor being masked, he's talking about an All Brett primary, not about adding Brett late in the primary. If you take the time to follow Chad's logic, adding Brett late in the primary would produce more funk than an All Brett primary. I'm not saying whether that is true or not. But it doesn't support your idea that adding Brett late in the primary is a good way to get extra attenuation without affecting the flavor.

 

Brett isn't made to emulate English stock ales?? I never said it was. Brett is an organism, it exists in nature to do what ever it wants. Brettanomyces flavor in English stock ales is a classic example of brettanomyces character.

In a post above (see quotes below) you say that Brett will add no flavor to the beer:

So which are you advocating, no flavor at all, flavor when used in secondary, etc.?

A good deal of Chad's post detailed pitching Brett as the primary fermentation organism, which is completely different than what you are advocating. Pitching Brett towards the end of primary will still produce very similar effects as secondary, as many of the precursors for brett esters (acid and alcohol) have already been produced by the primary fermentation strain.

 

You type faster than I do. D*ck.