Need some help with my hoppy beers

Haha! Me too!

 

OP, I think there's been plenty of good suggestions here. What are your takeaways?

 

And that's my point, double check your equipment. My last apa was all wonky because I trusted a thermometer that I hadn't used in a while. I mashed in at what I thought was 153. I let the mash rest while going along and doing my thing, and when I came back I tossed my usual thermometer in. I was sitting at 167. I mashed out and finished the beer, however the finished produuct is pretty muddled as far as hop flavors go, and the mouthfeel is all sorts of wacky. Typically my hoppy beers are, well, hoppy beers. They have a nice nose, huge late kettle addition flavors and a lingering bitterness. Although I used my typical hop schedule with copiuos amounts of hops, this beer has very little hop presence, and what comes through is mostly bitter. Had I not thrown in the second thermometer I would have been lamenting on here as well trying to figure out what went wrong. Because the mash temp was so high I am pretty sure the enzymes were stiffled at best. A simple iodine test on my finished beer shows some starch still in solution.

 

I'd like to know what the OPs actual OG and FG were for this beer as well. The conditions you describe certainly would result in a higher FG than expected; even a few degrees would yield a noticable difference in FG, and this could muddle hop flavor a bit as you said.

 

Sounds like you have a lot of things in check, but as mentioned multiple times, you should look into simplifying your malt bill. Also, what temp are you mashing at and how much yeast are you pitching. I apologize if this was listed in your original post, but your recipe has more ingredients than my last 20 recipes combined.

 

I'll back up ever so slightly on my comment regarding your mash pH. I just saw a post on BrunWater's Facebook page with regards to mash pH for hoppy vs malty beers. I am not saying I agree or disagree with this, but I'll throw it out there. In the post BrunWater suggests that a pH of 5.4 is good for hoppy beers and 5.2 for malty beers. If your mash pH has been consistently less than 5.4 you might shoot a bit higher. Just something else to consider.

 

John Kimmich was quoted saying if you pH is outside of 5.1-5.3 you beer will become a muddled mess. I'm not that deep into the pH of wort and what the subtle difference would be, but thats something worth noting, as Heady has a ton of hops, a simple malt bill, and it's certainly no muddled piece of shit.

I too struggle from time to time with muddled and "generic" tasting IPA's.

@utahbeerdude , if starting from RO water, what values for water would YOU use for a hoppy, light SRM beer?

 

OP- What is your yeast situation? I've noticed a difference in beers when I've taken short cuts on yeast and pitch rates, as well as crashing the yeast.

Good fresh yeast? Starters of appropriate size? O2?

 

I don't yet have a personal preference for salts IPA/APA's. I'm still working on it. I guess if I were starting from scratch, I'd try to get close to the Cl and SO4 values from the Martin Brungard recommended Burton profile in a recent Zymurgy: Cl (55 ppm) and SO4 (300 ppm) using CaCl and CaSO4. One could also use a bit of MgSO4 rather than CaSO4 if one wanted to up the Mg a bit.

For a given water profile, I use acidulated malt to hit (a calculated room temperature) pH of 5.4 (my generic target), using the spreadsheet found here.

While I have spent quite some time studying water as related to brewing, especially mash pH, I personally am not yet convinced that it makes a huge difference in the final product. I have made excellent IPAs with both my tap water (high alkalinity) and building up from distilled. As a side note, I do seem to get best mash efficiencies when the pH is close to 5.4 (as opposed to higher).

Perhaps someone out there knows the profile for Heady Topper?

 

You wouldn't be the same guy or know Lakeside Smokers? If you are, your BBQ is legendary my friend. If your beer is half as good, you're doing well for yourself.

 

Yep, that's me, @Jesse14 . Thanks for the props! Are you on a team?

 

No. Just a groupie. I used to go to 3-4 comps in and around NE every summer to sample, watch, and learn. I met you many years ago at the VT Championship when you were parked next to IQUE. Been focusing on the homebrew more of late. BBQ later. Only so much time in a day. Maybe I'll get to one this summer and reintroduce myself and we can share a beer.

 

Mark,

I don’t have a specific answer for you but BA @telejunkie (Dave Green) wrote a great article in the October 2013 issue of BYO entitled Vermont Cult Classics in which there are recipes for cloning Heady Topper. One aspect in the section of Tips for Success is: John Kimmich’s biggest piece of advice for cloning this beer” “Technique and water treatment”.

Maybe Dave Green can provide some more insight on this specific topic?

Cheers!

Jack

P.S. There is also a great discussion in the October 2013 BYO by Mr. Wizard on obtaining clear beers (and conducting vigorous boils) but that is a separate topic.

 

Try cutting out the whirlpooling and just send straight to the plate chiller. For several years I chilled as quickly as possible and then based on all the hoopla I heard regarding whirlpooling and hop stands (See BA forum and other places) I started whirpooling all my hoppy beers... the result was beers that were normally very hoppy and had a great, clear flavor profile became muddled and overly bitter (this is with identical hop and grist bills). I've since started chilling as fast as possible again through the plate chiller and replacing whirlpool additions with hop back additions, and have been incredibly happy with the results. Granted this is my opinion, but google John Kimmich and Chop and Brew, for his opinion on this subject (He says he wishes he could chill as fast as possible).

Also, as mentioned above, check your mash pH. This can make a huge difference in the crispness of the beer. This is also mentioned in the Chop and Brew video I mentioned above.

I haven't had Head Hunter IPA, but since it gets rave reviews and has won at GABF, the recipe you're using is clearly fine. While I currently tend to not use any crystal malt (other than carapils or golden naked oats; low low lovibond c-malts) in my hoppy beers, I've had success using them in the past (e.g. competition medals), and it really doesn't matter much until the beers start to age and pick up caramel flavors.

 

Ward, you have an interesting discussion topic about whirlpool additions creating a muddled hop flavor profile. Have you heard about others having a similar experience in this regard?

For the past year I have added a hop stand to my brewing practice; I add the flame out hops and let them stand for about 20 minutes before chilling. My chilling timeframe is 15 minutes so the end of boil hops has a total contact time of 35 minutes before reaching pitching temperature. I have not noted any muddled flavors from this process.

Is there a marked difference between a whirlpool and the hop stand that I perform?

Cheers!

Jack

P.S. I bought a case of Head Hunter last year and that beer is OUTSTANDING!

 

Come to think of it.. thats a pretty decent thought barfdiggs..

I know that most of my beers that I'm not whirlpooling, or doing so while chilling down as soon as flame out, are coming out crisper and not muddled.

I've had some IPAs myself come out pretty meh, and it's when I've let them sit for a little while before I chill..

Might have to do an experiment. I have a IPA/Pale grist in a bucket ready to go. Next week I'll brew it, and toss in my late additions and "whirlpool" hops and just start the pump and the chiller ( I use an immersion ). Let it ride down as low as I can get it instead of waiting for it..

Next step would be a hopback that I pump chilled wort from the kettle to the fermenter though and see what that will do.

 

This is an interesting point. There are many commercial brewers (Brylindson comes to mind) that swear by whirlpooling. I have seen it both ways. I have used in hop additions in the whirlpool that I didn't like there; once pushed towards the dry hop the flavor was much better, as you said less dull, more pointy. I think this might be hop dependent.