Need some help with my hoppy beers

Forgot about Matt Bryndilson, but hey what does he know about hoppy beers

I agree, and will add my 2 cents (maybe worse even less than this) that I think may also be system dependent, and dependent upon other variables as well (water, pH, grist, etc.).

 

The biggest difference between your hopstand and my whirlpool would be the presence of a pump and constant recirculation for the duration of the stand (on my part). I've also tried turning the pump on for a short period of time (5-10 minutes) to get the pellets to settle, and letting the hops steep for the remainder of the stand and saw an improvement in the flavor profile.

Apparently, they don't even pump Heady Topper and instead push with CO2 from vessel to vessel; a little extreme, but interesting and probably based on some anecdotal results with their brewing practices.

One of these days I'll make a point to get a hold of some head hunter. We've been swimming in Alpine Nelson down here (Yes, the polarizing Nelson), and since its one of my favorite beers, I've been drinking lots of it.

 

I thought my water was the problem. I just added more hops. 12 ozs in my 5 gal AG SMaSH beer. Its hoppier than any commercial beer. Regular, untreated plain tap water. 1Malt, one Hop, US05. Super dank and bitter and awesome.ADD MORE HOPS. When I first looked at all the weird shit you were putting in your beer all I could think was why is he putting so much stuff in there? KISS. Im borderline ******ed and I just made a beer thats better than most any commercial beer that goes for 15 bucks a 4 pack! 4 ingredients man.

Seriously, you ever just try making it with regular tap water? Try a SMaSh with regular tap water.

 

So - I skim-read this thread, and still am not clear - what do you mean by "muddled?" Are the hop flavors not pronounced enough? Is it overwhelmingly bitter? Too malty?

Everything you do works in synergy with everything else. The more I brew, and the more attentive I'm becoming to the brewing process, the more I'm realizing that the answer to the question "what went wrong to cause X?" is not as simple as just changing one thing. For example, adjusting your salts will affect your mash pH, which will affect the flavor and fermentability of your wort, which might change your FG and perceived body, etc. You might have a better final product if you rebuild your water from scratch.

For example, your high calcium levels and low alkalinity don't match your grain bill. Your residual alkalinity is well below zero, and the C60 will contribute acidity to your mash. How did you measure your mash pH? Off the top of my head, I'd say your mash pH was probably lower than 5.3, considering your addition of lactic acid. Either use more alkaline water, add less calcium, or cut out the acid addition. I would also consider lowering your SO4 to around 200. Elevated levels can cause bitterness to express astringently. Also, with your grain bill being fairly heavy on dark crystal, you might want to add more chlorides to the mash. Your grain bill is meant to provide some maltiness, but your water profile is working against that. I don't think a 9- or 10-1 sulfate/chloride ratio is appropriate in an IPA with that much specialty malt; it would be more appropriate in a beer of 4 SRM, not 8, and maybe not even then.

Those are just some thoughts off the top of my head, but I'd aim for a higher mash pH, a slightly lower mash temp, a higher yeast pitching rate (1 pack with no starter is not enough; pitch 2 or even 3 packs if you don't want to make a starter), and a lower Sulfate/Chloride ratio. You want a pretty dry beer to express those hops in the face of all that malt, but you don't want to ignore the maltiness completely when building your water.

 

I assumed the OP's defining "muddled" as no real pop or highlights from certain hops in the beer.. As if you used Centennial, Citra, and Simcoe, that you wouldn't be able to toss out anymore than 1-2 defining flavors or aromas, and and none of it was bright and easy to taste. It just comes across as generally bland, muddy and just a generic hop flavor.

 

To the OP. I think kdb150 makes some excellent points to consider. I'll remark on the one I've quoted. I put your grain bill, water, salt and acid additions into my water calculator, and it spits out a predicted mash pH of 5.11. While I'm generally inclined to go with measurements over theoretical estimates, kdb150's feeling regarding mash pH is in line with my calculations. I do know that some here on the forum have confirmed the spreadsheet to work quite well for them in predicting mash pH.

Given this and the feeling of some that a mash pH of ~5.4 is best suited for hoppy beers, I agree that you may wish to try a higher mash pH. If you simply drop the acid addition and leave everything else the same, then the calculator predicts a mash pH of 5.4. BTW, this pH is for wort cooled to room temperature.

Of course, if you tell me that you have already played around with mash pH as a variable, then never mind.

 

I actually think there's something to the whole chill it down portion.

I can't think back well enough to when I started whirlpooling at letting the hops sit. Early on, I would say the beers were great tasting, but I'm not one to think the beer before it's finished carbing and conditioning to be anything like the final product.


I used to think it was my extensive hopbills. I'd pile in different things, and slowly backed that down. It's seemed to help by trying to to keep it around 3-4 types of hops at most.

But, I would say that my "hoppy" pales and wheats.. tend to have a more distinct hop flavor and aroma than even my IPA's.. I don't do a hopstand in those generally, and just chill and call it done for a small dry hop in the keg.

That said.. OP, how long are you letting your beers sit in primary before you get around to moving them to a keg, or another vessel? I left a DIPA in a bucket in the garage for like 3-4 weeks after it was done, and I have a feeling it got a bit oxidized just sitting around. The bucket seal was terrible I know for a fact.

I also found that the lower the FG I could get, the better the hops tasted too. I get that more in my smaller beers.

 

I'm also pretty intrigued by the rate of chilling idea. I recently brewed a 5 gallon ipa that I whirlpooled at 120 degrees for 40 minutes with 1.25 oz each chinook, citra and centennial. Those were the hops throughout the brew with a schedule 15, 5, whirlpool and dry hop. Before seeing this thread I classified the beer as having an extremely muddled hop profile. Next go round I'll just skip the whirlpool, through the plate chiller and see how it turns out.

 

thanks Jack, unfortunately I haven't played with water enough with my Heady clone attempts to get a firm grasp on which way to go since John didn't provide much insight into water profile when I tried to coax out some beta in this department besides his departure point (soft water). But i do think that in this arena he was more referring to carbonate levels than sulfate & chloride...make sure you're working with soft water. Just a guesstimate, but I would say between a 1:1 ratio of sulfate to chloride to 2:1. I've build mine to Lawson's specs and that has worked well for me.

 

What are the specs you are using for lawsons stuff?

 

my only article I can't post:
http://byo.com/store/backissues/2013-back-issues/product/164-october-13

 

I have that issue.... somewhere.