Describe the Description #1 - Phenolic

It seems like this thread is full of opinions. Or maybe I'm just uneducated. Can we get a legit answer?

Is "phenol" just a synonym of "smell" or "aroma"? Or is it a term used for a specific type of smell?

 

rotten bananas

 

Ever had Laphroig? Bandaids and astringent notes in the smoky Islay peat

This seemed like a good starting point. HTH.

http://www.thegoodscentscompany.com/odor/phenolic.html

 

The fact that "phenolic" can be broken down into so many different aromas shows that it should not be used as a descriptor.

Just use plain English, people. Jargon is for the self-important.

 

Nice link.

So you feel the same about Hoppy, Malty, Estery and so on?

 

well, he's going too far to say they shouldn't be used as descriptors. each is a GENERAL descriptor. Beer A is very hoppy, Beer B is highly phenolic, etc.
And each can be broken down into further specifics. So, yeah, attempts to categorize an entire family of beer characters with one phrase aren't going to be very helpful or specific.

/telling Jeff stuff he already knows.

 

Yeah, you need to be able to break it down.

 

I personally don't think educating the community is a wise use of time Isn't there a widely accepted beer we could be hating on right now?

great thread.

I've always associated it more with just sharp alcohol presence never really tried to distinguish between sources. I normally use the word on the nose at least as a descriptor.

Any phenolic beers that stick out in anyones mind? any of them have different phenolic notes you've noticed?

 

Great post! Need more like this for sure. While I have never used the term in a review I certainly see how these chemicals can influence your perception of beer. For me the "medicinal" one stands out, especially for heavy rubbing alcohol notes in high ABV IPAs. That always seems like a detraction to my rating. On the other hand I don't mind it in a Barrel aged RIS at all, go figure.

 

As has already been described, phenols can have a broad range of flavors. I personally am a BIG fan of phenol flavors/aromas in Belgian Ales.

Some of the phenol flavors that are described from an off flavor perspective are: plastic, band-aid, medicinal, etc.

In terms of a beer like a hefeweizen a phenol flavor (which I like) is clove.

The best descriptor I have for Belgian Ale type phenols is spicy. The problem with the descriptor of “spicy” is that it can mean so many flavors/aromas. I wish I had a more precise word than “spicy” but that is the best that I have at the moment.

Cheers!

 

band-aid...had it in one of my homebrews a few years back...had to dump 6 gallon batch

 

There are standards for these components already written and taken as reliable descriptions. Why would you ask for opinions and introduce variable inaccuracies?
Phenolics are described as band-aid like.
But what if I said IMHO, phenolics taste like cherry pie. Would I be taken seriously?

 

The following is probably the most legit answer in the entire thread:

The reality is that there are many types of flavors caused by phenols, some of which are expected in certain types of beer and others of which are almost always considered faults. In addition, because it involves taste, phenols will not always be perceived the same way by everybody. For example, Scrapps mentioned Laphroaig whisky having a pronounced band-aid flavor; some people perceive the phenols in peat-smoked malt as having a band-aid flavor. With one exception, I am not one of those people. Laphroaig was the first bottle of whiskey I ever bought for myself, and I've had several other heavily peated whiskys, none of which reminded me of band-aids. The only time I have ever tasted band-aids from peated malt is in Dogfish Head Immort Ale.

JackHorzempa mentioned that Belgian beers are frequently phenol-heavy in a way best described as "spicy," which isn't exactly right but about as close as you can get. I tend to think of these beers as "spicy" not in the hot chile pepper sense, but more in the sense of tasting like various spices were added to it. Complicating this matter is that not all Belgian beers are very phenolic, some are much more ester-driven (fruity).

German hefeweizen, dunkelweizen, and doppelweizen/weizenbock pretty much universally have some degree of a very, very specific phenol: 4-vinyl guaiacol, which (as Esplinx indicated) tastes like cloves. Some of these German wheat beers have more of a banana flavor, which is produced by an ester, not a phenol (specifically, amyl acetate). In any case, if you have a weizen beer that has neither of these flavors, it's probably either old and stale or fresh and American.

Whereas those examples above are generally considered desirable (even mandatory) phenols in beer, there are also phenols that aren't supposed to be there. As has been said several times in this thread, there is one phenol (and I have no idea which one) that tastes like biting into a medicine tablet. I believe there is another phenol that tastes like burnt rubber, like a flaming car tire or a worn-out vacuum belt.


That was longer than I intended it to be, my apologies.

 

Smells like a Belgian sunrise over dew covered fields of fresh grass.

It also smells like a shitty review.

 

When you use it negatively, I think of it being medicinal, like chewing aspirin.

(Not the same as being herbal-bitter or spicy, to me.)

 

Cheers, I just broke out my last dram in a mineral water rinsed Waterford Crystal mini-tulip and it is glorious.

Try a good "chew" on this whisky and the strong phenols will present "band-aid" more robustly IMO. I think the ABV of this beverage does attenuate the plastic/band-aid a bit. Mineral water will allow the palate to experience it more fully and it can present a bit differently when in the presence of minerals and/or spring water.

As to beer....I must try Immortal Ale if it has these qualities, thanks for the heads-up. I think a deeply flavored ale, not unlike Weyerbacher Insanity, would benefit from a kiss of smoky peat

 

I enjoy this topic...let me know when we're covering Horseblanket.

 

Maybe.
para-tolualdehyde
odor: fruity cherry deep phenolic

http://www.thegoodscentscompany.com/odor/phenolic.html

 

Awesome post! no apologies necessary.