Describe the Description #1 - Phenolic

The only problem with this is that para-tolualdehyde isn't a phenol. Given the broad range of actual phenols that are present in beer, I cringe when I see non-phenols being described as "phenolic". It just confuses matters further. (For the record, cavedave, I'm not taking a swipe at you, just using the overly inclusive website you found as an example for my rant.)

I try to avoid "phenolic" as a descriptor in any case, given the wide range of pleasant (clove) to not-so-pleasant (band-aid) subcategories within the phenolic class. When "phenolic" could legitimately mean any of "smoky", "baby aspirin", "band-aid", "medicinal", "peppery", or "clove", then it's lost quite a bit of descriptive power.

And if you want to know what actual, garden-variety phenol is like, look no further than a bottle of Chloraseptic.

 

No problem, I too struggle to identify phenolic and estery flavors, and the fact that so few actual bio chemists chime in with accurate knowledge that folks like us can use reliably makes it even more confusing. Add to this the 350+ chemicals in hops that contribute flavors and it is easy to understand the dearth of beer descriptors whose roots are accurately portrayed.

 

Band-aid with a hint of smoke. Ick. Sadly, I recently had a Stone Smoked Chipotle Porter which had just too much phenolic flavor. I'm going to guess it was an off bottle, because the smoke and chilies were completely missing and the band-aid coating my tongue took two glasses of water to rinse out.

 

Ooooh! oooh!
Now let's see what everybody's opinion of esters are! I say anteater asshole.

 

I see I'm not in the minority when I equate a phenolic aroma to the smell of Band-Aids.

 

Antiseptic, hospital, medicinal, smokey, clove-like, rubber, burning plastic.

Also, I think La Fin du Monde has a slightly vinyl-like note in it's aroma. I don't know if that's phenol or not but the plastic/rubber descriptors made me think of that.

 

I love your idea but this is BA where beer nerds think horse blanket is a taste rather than a smell and Dark Lord tastes like roasted figs (I've never had roasted figs but I imagine they don't taste like imperial stout and table sugar)

We have a better chance of accidentally curing a disease in this thread than doing what you set out to do.

But in the spirit of foolish optimism and the desire that people actually know what they are talking about for once here it goes...

Phenolic: As a flaw in beer its like chewing pills, medicinal verging on metallic at times. Done intentionally its more like holiday spices clove, allspice, nutmeg etc.

 

<sigh...>

 

This is a fantastic idea for a thread. Keep 'em comin'!

I can feel what it smells like when I think about it but describing it is harder (hence the thread, I suppose). It is a sweet but hot/spicy aroma. I also feel like it is more like a heat that comes from the spiciness than it is two separate smells.

 

Whether you get "good" or "bad" phenolics depends on the genetics of the yeast and the brewing raw materials. A few ale yeasts (Belgian strains, German weizen strains) have active POF (phenolic off flavor) genes. Many Brett strains also have active POF genes. Most ale and all lager strains have inactive POF genes or lost them altogether. The enzymes convert hydroxy cinnamic acids (HCAs) in the barley to vinyl phenols, then ethyl phenols (two-step biochemical pathway). There are a number of HCAs in plants, in differing concentrations. Brett is the scourge of the wine industry because grapes are high in p-coumaric acid, the HCA precursor that produces the "bad" phenolics. Barley is higher in ferulic acid which leads to the spicy or smoky phenolics. In making weizens, some brewers add a "ferulic acid rest" to release more of the precursor into the wort for the yeast to work on, leading to higher levels of clove aroma/flavor. Below is a link to a review. It's from the wine perspective, but still has good info if you want to geek out on the science.

Suarez et al, 2007

 

I enjoyed reading your post on yeast produced phenols.

I think it is worth noting that there are sources of phenols in beer beyond those produced by yeast. For example there are chlorophenols which can occur if there is chlorine (from brewing water) present; the chlorine will react with naturally occurring phenols in your beer and produce chlorophenols. Needless to say but a brewery that uses tap water should eliminate the chlorine prior to brewing (e.g., filtering or using campden) but it is possible the level of fitering (or amount of campden added) is insufficient.

Another example is polyphenols (tannins) which can occur if the brewery oversparges during the brewing process. Tannins typically manifest themselves as an stringent mouthfeel but they could also be perceive as a bitterness in some occasions.

Bacterial infection can also produce a strong phenolic flavor, often in combination with sour off flavors. This can often come from infection of hoses, valves and taps used in brewing or serving the beer.

Cheers!

 

I was not aware of significant phenols in bacterial infections which is really interesting because I had a bourbon barrel aged porter from a brewery that turned out to be infected. It was obviously sour but it was also underpinned buy a taste I would liken to the way burnt socks smell (if that makes any sense) I wonder now if that could explain how that peculiar flavor came about.

 

“I would liken to the way burnt socks smell (if that makes any sense)” I personally have not experienced that but I am sure that some folks who hike/camp and placed their wet socks too close to a fire (to dry out) know what you mean here.

“ ..I wonder now if that could explain how that peculiar flavor came about.” I suppose it is possible. I am by no means an expert on bacterial production of phenols and the flavor characteristics of those particular phenols.

Cheers!

 

For me, phenolic signifies a medicinal and/or 'plastic' characteristic in beer. Some new homebrewers will incorrectly attribute this to using a plastic fermentor. Band-aid and electrical tape are what I interpret these smells as.

Phenolic character can also be desirable and/or expected, like those produced by hefeweizen/Belgian yeasts.

 

The peppery flavor in some Belgian beer can come come from yeast phenolics, that is present in beers brewed with the saison yeasts.

 

but it would seem that "phenolic" can have just as many flavors aromas as "spicy"

 

but it would seem that "phenolic" can have just as many flavors aromas as "spicy"

Of that there is no doubt. “phenolic” can mean medicinal, band-aid like, smoky, spicy, and a myriad of other flavors.

The ‘trick’ is how best to describe the phenols that are produced by Belgian yeast strains. The best descriptor that I have for them is “spicy”. I would be interested in hearing your descriptors for the Belgian yeast strain produced phenols.

Cheers!

 

Yes, I do. I also find "beery" unacceptable. My wife (not into beer at all) uses that one a lot.

I understand saying that a beer has an overall phenolic/malty/hoppy aroma or flavor. I would generally try to break it down a bit further. That's just me, though. I enjoy the dissection.

 

Yeah, one needs to obtain the vocabulary to describe what you are tasting in detail. Writing a judging sheet needs more than phenolic, malty, hoppy.