Help with water chemistry

Discussion in 'Homebrewing' started by Supergenious, Jun 10, 2014.

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  1. Supergenious

    Supergenious Maven (1,273) May 9, 2011 Michigan

    I am in the process of figuring out how to tweak my water to obtain target profile, and have a few questions.
    1) How many of you start from scratch with distilled or RO water?
    2) What program do you use? (Bru'n water, brewers friend, etc)
    3) Any suggested reading to further educate myself on this?

    Any assistance would be greatly appreciated, thanks.
     
  2. mattbk

    mattbk Savant (1,111) Dec 12, 2011 New York

    1) I do not. My water profile is pretty good, except for higher alkalinity. I counteract the alkalinity by additions of acid (or acid malt) to the mash and acid to the sparge. Negligible taste impact. If you have high hardness or very, very high alkalinity you may want to dilute or build from scratch.
    2) Use MpH calculator by @utahbeerdude. Simpler to use and more accurate than the others. These calculations have also been incorporated into BrewCipher by @VikeMan.
    3) Water chemistry is unfortunately fairly technical. If you're up for it, check out Water by John Palmer, or take a look at the papers @utahbeerdude has written. Also, if you download Bru'n water, the Instructions and Water Knowledge tab is pretty useful.
     
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  3. Tebuken

    Tebuken Initiate (0) Jun 6, 2009 Argentina

    I have a very salty and high alkalinity tap water so it is not suitable for brewing neither pale beers nor dark ones.
    I need to taylor my water from RO water to get a water profile for each beer style I´m going to brew.Reading John Palmer ´How to brew´ water chapter you will understand perfectly how chemistry plays its role.
    I use EZ water spreadsheet, it works fine for me.

    You can download it here : http://www.ezwatercalculator.com/
     
  4. JohnSnowNW

    JohnSnowNW Initiate (0) Feb 6, 2013 Minnesota

    1. My water is pretty good for most beers, but I dilute with distilled when necessary.
    2. I've used pretty much all the calcs, and have landed on Brewcipher/MpH
    3. HBT's "Water Chemistry Primer" thread is a good beginner guide.
     
  5. hopfenunmaltz

    hopfenunmaltz Pooh-Bah (2,635) Jun 8, 2005 Michigan
    Pooh-Bah

    1 RO
    2 Brunwater
    3 Water by Palmer if you are technical.
     
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  6. jamescain

    jamescain Initiate (0) Jul 14, 2009 Texas

    1. I just use the water I have on hand which is pretty hard and alkaline. To counter act that I always use a percentage of acid malt in my mash and add lactic acid to my sparge water. I've used RO water in the past but normally I don't just out of laziness and not wanting to go get it.
    2. I've used to use Brewer's Friend since it offers a lot of calculations that most online calculators do not offer. I've recently built my own spreadsheet that incorporates aspects that I saw from around the internet as well as other calculations that I use for brewing all into one central location.
    3. As everyone has suggested read Water by John Palmer, but make sure your chemistry is up to date. There are also plenty of other resources out there https://sites.google.com/site/brunwater/ is a good one and I also recommend OldStock's blog for his water explanation or even looking into the archives at the Brewing Network.
     
  7. CurtFromHershey

    CurtFromHershey Initiate (0) Oct 4, 2012 Minnesota

    1. Charcoal filtered tap water partially diluted with distilled
    2. VikeMan's Brewcipher
    3. Can't comment on specific sources. Reading water reports and forum discussions helped me a lot though.
     
  8. MLucky

    MLucky Initiate (0) Jul 31, 2010 California

    This.

    My city water tastes awful, so I've had little choice but to use RO. Though I understand very little about the science, I'm able to get by using easily available software. I'm trying to read 'Water,' but it's a tough go. My point being, you can do this even if the chemistry is over your head, as it is over mine.
     
  9. hopfenunmaltz

    hopfenunmaltz Pooh-Bah (2,635) Jun 8, 2005 Michigan
    Pooh-Bah

    I guess you might be in LA or SD. They get water from the Colorado River, which is loaded with minerals. Stone uses half RO, half tap, and has bags of gypsum and CaCl2 for further adjustment.

    My water is very hard, but that is not really the issue, the alkalinity is. About 360 ppm bicarbonate, RA is 200, so it is not good.
     
  10. ltjska04

    ltjska04 Zealot (726) Jun 1, 2005 Kentucky

    I'm tired of accounting for seasonal variations in my water so have gone 100% RO and built up my last several batches. I can get 5 gallon refills at the local supermarket for a few dollars; totally worth it. I use Brunwater and the table from Water for adjustments.
     
  11. mattbk

    mattbk Savant (1,111) Dec 12, 2011 New York

    Can I ask how you know you are getting seasonal variation? Do you have it routinely tested, or is there just variation in your final product?
     
  12. VikeMan

    VikeMan Grand Pooh-Bah (3,067) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah

    1) I usually build from distilled.
    2) BrewCipher. But I am biased. (Or maybe not too biased, as the water chem models in BrewCipher were developed by utahbeerdude.)
    3) utahbeerdude's White Papers and the water knowledge pages at Bru'nWater
     
  13. slusk

    slusk Initiate (0) Sep 28, 2009 Virginia

    My water sucks so I actually use the Spring water from Walmart. The company that supplies it is printed on the label. I emailed them and they send me a COMPLETE water report yearly. It's fairly low in most ions but is fairly high in Alkalinity (170) and from year to year the reports are VERY consistent. I pretty much never use it straight, and have to dilute it with RO or distilled. I will build from RO if I'm brewing very pale beers.

    I've used Brewers friend with some success but I'm a big fan of Bru'n Water. It's a steeper learning curve, but once you understand all of the components and their interactions with all parts of water adjustment, you can work your water like a circus monkey!

    Read all you can find. A. J. Delange's posts and info is great as is Martin Brungard. The water book is a must, and for sure, listen to the 3 part waterganza (there's a 4th followup show as well) and the most recent 2 part show with Martin on brewing Cities... all on Brew Strong.

    The best advice I've received on water is don't stress over getting all of the levels perfect... It's really all about being in the right ball park. :wink:
     
  14. GreenKrusty101

    GreenKrusty101 Initiate (0) Dec 4, 2008 Nevada

    1. yes
    2. don't use any software routinely after initial use...CaCl and CaSO4 are usually only additions
    3. any and all already mentioned
     
  15. pweis909

    pweis909 Grand Pooh-Bah (3,250) Aug 13, 2005 Wisconsin
    Pooh-Bah

    I use my tap water. It's pretty good. I may want to dilute it for bopils, but for most styles, I'll add salts using brunwater. Might switch to brewcipher, but right now, I'm using what I am already familiar with. I've read several of the above named sources. I don't get overly obsessed with it though. You can make good beer without getting too involved.
     
  16. ltjska04

    ltjska04 Zealot (726) Jun 1, 2005 Kentucky

    I have had it tested several times. I also think RO water produces superior beer for me
     
  17. Supergenious

    Supergenious Maven (1,273) May 9, 2011 Michigan

    Thanks for all the help! Most of it was quite helpful. I think between Palmer-How to Brew, Mad Fermentationist stuff, and waterganza podcast I have a pretty decent understanding of water... Still far from an expert, but enough understanding to make me seem like i know what I'm doing.
     
  18. slusk

    slusk Initiate (0) Sep 28, 2009 Virginia

    I'm with you... I've just recently overcome my fear of using lactic acid. :wink: I still think of water questions after every brew. The cool thing is having access to all of the brewers in these forums and the fact that at any given time, Martin or AJ or any other expert on water could chime in with the right answer.
     
  19. utahbeerdude

    utahbeerdude Maven (1,374) May 2, 2006 Utah

    1) I usually start with RO from the local big-box store (35 cents / gallon) and add brewing salts and acids as needed to achieve both proper mash pH and flavor enhancements. While my tap water tastes great, it is quite high in alkalinity (in the neighborhood of 200 ppm HCO3-)

    2) MpH Water Calculator. This calculator uses equations obtained from analysis of Kai Troester's experiments on the effects of grist and residual alkalinity on mash pH. The MpH equations are also incorporated in Vikeman's BrewCipher.

    BTW, version 2 of MpH Water Calculator is almost ready for release (likely tomorrow). Thanks to interaction with JackHorzempa for the motivation for getting this done.

    3) Water Knowledge Page at the BrunWater web site, Kai Troester's various writings found at Bruakaiser, several papers on the Homebrewing Physics site,* Brewing Water Chemistry Primer at homebrewtalk. The book Water by Palmer and Kaminski has lots of great stuff in it, but the editing was not very strong (IMHO), and so at times it is a bit tedious to wade though. Still, much of it is worth the effort. A.J. deLange is a real expert and there is lots of good stuff on his site, but much of what is there is for those who are already fairly knowledgeable. I also highly recommend the current series in Zymurgy by Martin Brungard on brewing water in famous brewing centers; these articles are really great and are serving to explode many previous myths regarding these various waters.

    Cheers!

    *The papers on Mash pH include a comparison of the models used in the Brun Water, EZ Water, and MpH spreadsheets, which some here may find of interest. To large extent all three of these calculators are based on Kai Troester's experiments.
     
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  20. marquis

    marquis Pooh-Bah (2,313) Nov 20, 2005 England
    Pooh-Bah

    I was advised to give my water a good boil the night before brewing. This helps remove alkalinity (bicarbonate) and chlorine from the scene.Better still, blow air through it as it boils.
     
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