Our obsession w/ more hops, and commercial usage

If they got 11 barrels of finished beer, I bet they started with 15 barrels of wort. For that kind of hop load, I would expect to lose about 25-30% of my initial wort volume from FV to BBT. Given that amount, it's 6.2 pounds/bbl (which is how I think most breweries measure hop amounts, as it's the only fixed volume--loss is always variable) which is a little more reasonable. I'm sure that they quoted the finished volume of the batch to make it sound more impressive to customers. So basically, when talking about hopping rates in beers like this with big losses, it's important to consider what volumes we are talking about.

 

Our DIPA gets about 5 lbs/bbl and we lose an average of 25% of volume after filtration. This is with 3 dry hop additions totaling about 3 lbs/bbl.

 

What brewery are you talking about good sir I am curious.

 

A very, very good one in CA.

 

Not sure how much I'd really want to dry that one out, since it was all munich malt and no crystal malt. While I was generous with the citra, I wonder how much adding sugar and cutting hops would have really met the same goal. I'm not saying it's impossible of course, I just don't know. But of the pales and IPAs I have made so far, I was never left with the sensation of "boy I should have dried this one out and cut back on the hops." I guess I've been happy with my results and don't want to fix what's not broken. I'm also not one to heavily favor the west coast IPA style over "non" west-coast IPAs. In fact sometimes they seem one-dimensional, which isn't something I have noticed in my own beers thus far. So it's an enigma.

I suppose I could try it, but I'd have to set up something for a control in order to have results that carried much weight as far as deciding which I liked better. A reasonable setup would be to do a split batch, one with a standard (for me) grist, and one with a similar grist, but added sugar for dryness (technically I'd have to reduce the malts slightly to balance out the sugar addition too). Then I would need to hop the first "normally" and go "austere" on the second. Exactly what cutbacks the austere hops batch would require isn't exactly obvious either. I would assume something more on the lines of my early batch of Al's red-eye ale, which wasn't heavily hopped, but wound up being something of a hop bomb, Would require separate boils at the least (assuming I fudged it on the added sugar and ABV difference). Not exactly easy to properly set up (but possible).

Troof-fully, the batch I've got up next would be perfect to test it, since the LHBS is having an IPA/APA context with prizes etc. Nothing saying you can't enter the same beer in both categories, and nothing saying that one batch can't be split into two, handled differently, and then entered into both categories twice more, for a total of 4 entries. Only problem is I can't dawdle cuz the deadline is june 23rd and it's may 28th already. It would need to be a 2 weeks fermentation (including dry hopping), then bottle without delay. We'll see if it gets done or not. I wouldn't hold your breath just yet, but stranger things have happened....

Either way, it sounds like an intriguing thing to experiment with. The results would need to be tempered by several opinions not my own, of course, as trying to judge your own beers is like trying to measure the velocity and position of an electron all at the same time: Heisenberg's uncertainty principle will jack up your results big time!

 

My intention was to purpose force that beer to be "undrinkable," because I had read so many posts of "I used too much citra, it was so hot I had to let it age for six months before it was drinkable etc etc." Didn't happen, despite using a lot of citra. Maybe I'm an inefficient hops user. See my post a few minutes ago for more speculation and possible tests related to hop usage/efficiency. If we could more precisely determine which parameters are at play (assuming they are parameters that a homebrewer can (or can be arsed) to measure, then we could potentially have a eureka! moment.

 

Wait, so you're saying .... it's POSSIBLE that MORE hops doesn't ALWAYS make beer BETTER?

 

I suppose in my proposed experiment I should probably go with the quick chill thing. Honestly I haven't noticed any major differences between hop stand-ed beers and ones that I chilled immediately, but then no controlled experiment was conducted either, so my anecdote isn't worth much in the way of evidence (anecdotes never are anyway, but I digress).

 

See now this seems to be contradictory to what some are saying. This indicates to me that confusion over various parameters is muddling the process of determining whata with the hops. Controlled experiments needed (probably more than just one guy doing a single split batch too).

 

The hell you say.

 

Reported.

 

Yes, in the book it says exactly the same thing - namely that longer whirlpool had the opposite effect as expected, namely that volatilization of the oils and increased isomerization were the expected result and the actual result was (as Jack referenced) "more hop flavor, aroma, and perceived bitterness".

The reaction that no one is considering when they say that shorter times are better is the diffusion of the oils into the beer. It might be that while some of the oil is driven off in the whirlpool time, more oil is absorbed from the added hops. It's a balancing act for sure.

 

“Controlled experiments needed (probably more than just one guy doing a single split batch too).”

Yes, what is needed are multiple folks conducting split batches. Each homebrewer has their own unique homebrewery (i.e., differing equipment) and their own unique process which will most certainly impact how a beer will turn out. For example some homebrewers conduct a whirlpool, while others will conduct a more simple hop stand. Some homebrewers use pellets (and some will dry hop using bags) while others prefer whole hops.

This would be a good choice for a BBR/BYO joint experiment where the experiment could be set up to control as many of the variables as possible (e.g., only use pellet hops) and have a number of homebrewers conduct spilt batches. Unfortunately there is no way the quantify hop flavor or hop aroma so the results of the experiment would rely on taste testing (which is subjective).

Cheers!

 

You can analyze via HPLC for (some) essential oils and iso-alpha acids. Of course, someone would have to pay for this...

 

True, taste is somewhat subjective. But if enough parameters were controlled, and tastings were done with multiple persons tasting together, in person, I believe we could at least find the crux of the biscuit, and maybe even the unmitigated audacity.



After all, experienced beer drinkers and homebrewers wouldn't have a whole lot of angst over which was hoppier, or had more aroma, if you compared a fairly mild pale ale with a hop-bomb of an IPA. Now maybe two leading hop-bombs would be harder to differentiate, but this thread is indicative that the differences in process lead to non-trivial, at least in some way significantly measurable differences in flavor and aroma.

 

A balancing act indicates a set of equations that can be balanced (although different parameters on different systems will likely alter the exact balancing point). Still, some theoretical means of achieving hop nirvana is within the reach of mortal men, if only the beer gods will allow us this divine knowledge.

 

So the stone IPA clone that I brewed 10 days ago has just been tasted ... I cannot tell the difference in any way shape or form from my home brew and Stone.. this is so awesome. Its so freakin spot on. I will say I have to bottle still so things can change a slight amount there but this is perfect so far. Yes. Reading the stone book and the IPA book by mitch steele landed me this close although I will say I did not do the recipe that stone shares .. that is horse shit. My own hopping bill and water treatment has it perfect. Did I already say that ?

 

Scaling up/down from homebrew/commercial batches just gets you in the ballpark, sort of. You have to do text batches to flavor match due to all of the differences in efficiency, utilization, vessel geometry, fermentation, etc. one local brewery dumped batches when going to a brew house 4x as big (they kept the smaller original, so the had control batches to compare to).

 

I figured some of that going into the batch .. I knew pros would get more hop flavor from less hops so I scaled up

 

HPLC suxs for this... All about the GC-MS .

Let me know if you want some separation protocols, I have a bunch from back in the day.