I think I'm done trading

I quit in stages. I used to trade myself, then I started partner-trading (I'd split a box with a friend), then I just gave up entirely.

It's not cost-effective at all. I mean it's nice to try new things, but when I go to a store and have to pass up great local releases because I've got all this expensive out-of-state stuff in my fridge, I think I have a problem.

 

I understand where you all are coming from, and totally agree with you all for the most part. But I still havnt got to the point yet to where I am gonna just stop trading cold turkey, but for quite a while now I will only trade for big/rare beers that I am really wanting. Even if it is just a small 1:1 trade. I just dont care for trading/expanding for random locals for locals anymore...

 

I happen to be a new trader with only 4 trades under my belt (3 from RB and 1 here). I am up and down about the trading game and have not yet hit any groove. Here are my positive thoughts:

• Great for getting things I can't acquire due to travel/timing constraints. There are lots of beers that are still worth adding a few bucks/bottle to cost to acquire, i.e. received in a 6+ bottle trade and the shipment cost is in the $15 range. I've landed some of my top beers in my 3 trades and have only been partially disappointed once, mostly because the trader didn't reciprocate my generosity. Hopefully he does with someone else in a future deal.
• Great for meeting other like-minded beer enthusiasts. I have regular, non-trading contact with several trading partners now. I like to think we'd meet for a drink if I visited their areas or vice versa.
• Reading trade forums allows me to see what's currently out and about in the beer world. I don't have a much better way of seeing what releases are hitting at what times. Since I like to be up-to-date on my interests, the forums allow me to have a larger informational stake in the beer world.
• I will always feel better indulging in beer hype than in celebrity hype. Much more rewarding to obtain/share a great brew than to know what color pants Britney Spears wore when she went bra shopping on Sunday.

These things have, on the other hand, soured me quite a bit:

• New traders having to "play by the rules." What kind of statement is this? This has so much bureaucracy embedded in it that it sickens me. I work for a large corporation that makes people play by the rules, and it's exhausting and it stagnates progress. Expecting people who are jumping into what can be a fun hobby to abide by some unwritten code of conduct is silly. I understand the inherent risk of trading with someone with no feedback who has that whale you're dying to have, but apparently so does everyone else if the trade doesn't happen. Let them learn by doing, not by being shat upon in the forums. Alternatively, I love seeing the positive feedback that some members are happy to offer. That is encouraging and needs to be more prevalent
• People lowballing are annoying, but the beauty is that I don't have to deal with them, and neither does anyone else. Just like in business, if you're good to people and you manage your hand well, you'll be rewarded here in the end for being a good trader. No need to continually complain about lowballing. Just ignore it.
• Devaluing trades in a trader's post is pretty distasteful. I wish I didn't see people giving their unwanted two+ cents when someone makes a stingy offer. Just let it die if it's not meant to happen. If someone asks for feedback, however, let 'em have it.

I plan on continuing infrequent trades for beers I really want and hope to eventually find a regular trading partner (if anyone wants a TX trader, let me know!). My success rate is high in that I always wait until I get what I'm looking for. I like the excitement of receiving a beer that I've been dying to try. Christmas comes in every month!

 

psst, whisper from me over in the corner here, to you newer traders that are reading this, and unashamedly engaging in the kind of things cbeer88 is complaining about, i have a spoiler for you:

when all the old traders are gone, the whole edifice of beer trading is going to crash. these commodities simply are not valuable enough to treat the way you've been doing without a solid niche collector base like the original "trading community." you parasites will destroy the host.

enjoy talking to your friends on IRC about the good old days when a brewery-only release bottle gave you more than $5 profit on ebay, or jumping in headfirst only to find you just paid $75 for a worse beer than you could have bought for $2.

 

Yeah, people in general have shown a strong ability for self-restraint and should be trusted with $50-$100 of beer no questions asked.

 

That was the breaking point for me as well, but with UPS, not trading. My friends talked me into getting a FedEx account, and I instantly saw my shipping costs drop around 60%.

I'm at 123 trades now over the past three years with no problems (I lurked around and learned the ropes for a while before I jumped in), but I don't see myself stopping anytime soon. I've definitely slowed down though. The first 80 or so were in the first year.

 

the fact is, new traders don't seem to understand what "trading" is about. that you compare the whole thing to business in your later bullet point suggests that you don't either.

the "beer trade market" is not a liquor store. it's a fun hobby. idiots moving in trying to turn $1 into $2 really do make it worse for everyone. this does not take care of itself.

if anything, i think beer traders have been derelict in trying to illustrate to new traders all the things they're doing wrong. i'm guessing they just don't really care, and are going to move on like shogo. i was never a huge trader myself anyway, so it's no big deal to me. but regarding the seemingly tyrannical "unwritten codes," they just are necessary. all the misunderstanding about trading exhibited every day ("guys, what if i let go of my beer For Less Than It's Worth!?!? HOW WILL I KNOW???") proves this.

plus, references are an obvious necessity. you see all these bad trader threads, right?

 

What size/weight boxes are you all shipping that cost $40+?

With over 250+ trades under my belt, and having shipped some pretty big/heavy boxes, I cant recall one time I have ever spent over $20 tops to ship a box across the US...

Remember, a 20 lb box only weighs 8 lbs.

 

I find it pretty incredible new traders feel they deserve to sidestep the rules which, by your own admission, you understand are in place to make sure established traders don't get screwed. If you get offended by someone protecting their investment from an unknown trader, you might want to try empathy and a little humility. And you should probably change your opinion so you don't get ripped off in the future when someone offers you a too-good-to-be-true deal and takes you for a ride.

 

Save for BIFs and the occasional dalliance with past good traders (you all know who you are), I'm also done with trading. There's just too much focus on a market mentality, on rarity, on stripping whatever fun and soul was once lurking in the whole trading activity. The costs haven't been enough of a deterrent (clearly, considering the number of boxes I've sent out over the past couple o' years...), but they haven't been helping, either.

I'm sticking to the ridiculous selection afforded me by the increasing badassery of Chicago distribution and to the ever-growing number of local brewpubs and bars.

 

Reading my first two bullets about getting great beers I can't get locally and meeting people along they way show that, in my opinion, I understand it fully. I started trading to get beers, but have made a few friends in the process. I think it's going quite well for me in spite of the apparent turmoil in the marketplace. I really hope to meet more people through these sites so that when I travel for work in the future, I'll have a small network with whom I can meet and enjoy local brew.

Regarding references, yes, they are helpful. But if you want to trade with someone who has none, ask them to ship first and only send a return box once satisfied. If they don't ship or don't get it right, don't send your side to them and let them know why you didn't. Simple.

And comparing it to a business is pretty reasonable considering the nature of my trades thus far. My experiences have all included me making an offer, which was then countered and negotiated by the other party. Notice also that I don't think I've been the one trying to drive a hard bargain. When someone makes a reasonable request, I attempt to satisfy it if possible. In doing that, my trade partners have all reported being very happy with what they got, plus the extras I always include.

 

I just started trading and already realize that I can't really afford to do it regularly haha.

I just trade to get things I don't have access to and tend to just respond to ISO threads rather than posting my own...All of my trades have been completed that way...and I feel like as someone new to trading that is the best policy...It helps me assess what people are willing to trade and I've met some great people through this community. So I'm crossing my fingers I'm not one of those n00bs people complain about haha. I've also really been humbled by the generosity shown in extras by my trading partners and it's made me really up my game.

I will probably just stick with one or two regular partners down the road though...with the cost of shipping, extras, and the beer itself the price tag is just too much...and I already have more beer than I reasonably need...

 

Sadly you are correct.

 

I appreciate the wisdom based statement, but think your aim is still off. Shouldn't these hallowed rules also be in place to protect the new traders? It's not just about the people who've been around for years, but it's also about the people who just showed up and want to get involved in a growing and great scene. The problem I have is that these rules establish a hierarchy based on experience. This can actually inhibit growth in a way that dissuades new users from becoming part of the group. If this is what people seek, perhaps I am in the wrong place. I know some parts of the old regime are dismayed by the alarming growth of craft beer, but complaining about it in a public forum dedicated to the promotion and growth of craft beer seems atrophic and cancerous.

Regarding getting ripped off, I've learned the hard way through getting scammed buying a guitar on eBay when I was younger. I lost a lot of money and was pretty downtrodden, but it's made me more savvy in reading people. The signs were all there and I now recognize them well. Sometimes we all have to learn by doing, exactly as I said earlier.

 

I am not sure I understand why the rules should be there mainly for the benefit of new users? You spend time and effort here trying to gain a reputation as a good trader, once you have a good reputation (as seen through your prior actions) you are then seen as more trustworthy. The only real "rules" here are with regard to who ships first and in no way does it seem to me that someone with no history or reputation should be in the less risky position than the person with a lot of experience who has earned a solid reputation.

 

Of course, there's a hierarchy. People who know what they're doing are less likely to make costly mistakes. As for protecting new traders: Are you seriously contending that established traders are going to prey on newbies? I don't think you understand the importance of trade reputation for the prolific members of this site. If someone who had 50 or 100 (or more) trades ripped someone off, they'd lose a lot of the trading connections they'd previously established. It's a bigger deterrent than anything else on this forum.

As for dissuading new users from becoming part of the group, that's demonstrably wrong. The rules have been in place for quite a while, and more and more users have joined every year. Now to the detriment of the trading forum when these newbies blow off the conventions (as you're arguing they should) and jump into the deep end of the pool without knowing whether they can even swim. People ignoring conventions hasn't worked. Unless you really want to start trading in a world where people expect the moon with a beer they picked up at their local store, all because it sells for a lot on Ebay.

 

Isn't this rule one that you are saying shouldn't exist? While I believe your posts are thoughtful and well written, I think you harping on the rules and then saying new traders should ship first as a general rule is doublespeak. As for my own trading rules, that's really my biggest one - if you're new, ship first.

Also - you got ripped on eBay doesn't make it okay for eBay not to impose rules and procedures protecting the buyer, which in the case of BA are trading rules. I'm even hesitant to call them "rules" so much as "guidelines" because there really is no recourse. If you want to dick someone over you can, but in general, follow the guidelines and you're less likely to get burned.

But, that's just, like, my opinion, man.

 

To clarify, I don't think they should be there mainly for the benefit of new users, but rather for the benefit of everyone, not just experienced users. The way things currently go, those rules seem to slow the absorption of new users by making them jump through several hoops before moving on to getting what they really want (I didn't want to do locals for locals trades when I started, but that's just me). I was fortunate to find a great trading partner who took a chance on me. Based on the feedback received, he was very glad he did as I showed extra gratitude for his dealing with me. He specifically said that I was better than most old traders for my communication, packaging, and generosity.

Your point is well received about building a reputation, and I'm currently trying to build my trade reputation through good deeds (and simultaneously tear down my forum discussion reputation). I used to provide links to my eBay feedback, but now realize that people automatically assume discussing eBay means you sell beer there. (Note: my eBay feedback doesn't include any beer sales in case anyone was preparing to blindfold me before the firing squad)

 

I think the two of you might be arguing about a different set of "rules". My only rule with n00b/newer traders is that they ship first (especially if they don't have ANY references), and it sounds like jsboots21 understands and agrees with that concept. What he has issues with is the "old boys club" mentality that new traders have to pay their dues before going after cool/limited/whale-ish beers, which I don't think writerLJBerg subscribes to. I also have issue with this thinking. If new traders have the ammo to pull off trades, what is stopping you from dealing with them? If you're concerned about getting ripped off, ask them politely to ship first. I can't see any reason someone would refuse a trade because the other person asked them to ship first, unless they were either planning to rip someone off or had serious questions about the other trader's credibility.

I do think there are things people should try to learn about before getting into trading. Packing, acronyms, shipping, etc. I don't really think the mythical "trade value" is one of the things people need to really learn before trading. I think that's more something that is learned once you've gotten a few trades under your belt.

 

You're probably right, and I probably missed the point. If so, I apologize.