Starter needed for a 1.065 OG?

I suppose ‘we’ are still awaiting further input from yinzer but at the moment it seems that Chris White is ‘consistent’ with a 1 liter starter:

“According to what I read in Chris White's "Yeast" book, an inoculation rate of 50 - 100 million cells/ml of wort appears to be the 'sweet spot' for maximizing cell growth and health in a starter.”

As to the statement of: “But if you believe the White Labs site just because it's the manufacturer …” I would also add “Wyeast” to that sentence. I am of the opinion that the yeast vendors know their product and are fully capable of providing recommendations on how best to utilize their products. I personally do not think it is solely a function of ‘Those sites oversimplify starter instructions (implying 'one size fits all' starters), with an aim toward helping beginners make their first batch(es)”

Regardless of what is stated in the book “Yeast” or what response I would receive from Chris White (or somebody from Wyeast) I know what ‘works’ for me. I follow the instructions provided by the yeast vendors (I overwhelmingly use Wyeast) and I make great beer.

There is absolutely nothing ‘wrong’ with following the recommendations of Mr. Malty. Being ‘conservative’ is not a bad thing. Having plenty of healthy yeast cells is a good thing. I just personally have the opinion that following the recommendations of the yeast vendors will result in making good beer.

The beauty of homebrewing: make the beers you like and make them the way you like.

Cheers!

 

Innoculation rate is not the same thing as starter size. But I'll cry 'uncle.' Believe what you want. It's your beer.

 

Sorry I misspoke when I said, "...yeast will not grow the cell count that you'll expect.". It was late and I had the cell count vs cell health backwards.

The 33M/ml inoculation rate would be if the yeast was made on the day of pitching. Not that low and probably not worth discussing. Make it a one month old packet and it's 25 M/ml. I think that this would be a more likely scenario. This is not a well known yeast and I don't think it moves fast so it might even be older.. Two months old and it's a 18 M/ml rate. That's really low.

The text that I quoted was from Sulli who made the yeast calculator at http://www.yeastcalc.com/

From playing around with that calculator it looks like he/they at the maximum only want a cell to double once. The rate of 100 M/ml seems to make only half of the cells double, but if you go higher the cell growth will start to drop off fast.

50 M/ml = 1.08 doubling or 100 billion cells > 208 billion cells
100 M/ml = .51 doubling or 100 billion cells > 151 billion cells

18 M/ml = 2.31 doubling or 100 billion cells > 332 billion cells
25 M/ml = 1.86 doubling or 100 billion cells > 186 billion cells
200 M/ml = .1 doubling or 100 billion cells > 110 billion cells


Sorry I wish that there was more reference on the "yeast health" issue. It would help people to make their own choice.

 

Thanks. I too wish there were some data on innoculation rate vs. yeast health, to supplement the well established growth data. Without that, it's sometimes hard to make the call between single and multi-step starters. (Though a stirplate does reduce the number of times to have to make that decision.)

 

Huh?

Sorry, just realized you maybe (hopefully) meant high krausen in the starter...

Either way I agree that a starter is a good idea for every beer.

 

“Believe what you want.”

That makes me think of a famous Homer Simpson quote:

Everybody has to have something to believe in. I believe that I will have another beer!

Cheers!

 

Or this one...
I would kill everyone in this room for a drop of sweet beer.
- Homer Simpson

 

Maybe we could reverse engineer the "it's bad cause you're just making beer" side of how many times you want the cells to reproduce before you want to feed them again.After all, people do re-pitch yeast and that is a valid point.

5 gals @ 1.060 needs 209 billion cells or 11 M/ml inoculation rate. Using the calculator I took 209 billion cells pitched into 5 gallons and in a perfect world (I'm making beer now not a starter) that will yield 851 billion cells and 3 doublings. So possibly with hops and trub you'll have less growth. Now I wouldn't feel comfortable just taking some slurry and pitching it. I'd want to get it healthy again. So basically where between the bad 3 and the good 1 doulbing would be okay to pitch straight away? I don't know, I'll look around some more or maybe send Sulli a message.

 

There appears to be more ‘ciphering’ going on here.

First, let me don my flame proof suit. OK, I am now ‘good to go’.

Pitching rate calculators like the one on Mr. Malty is predicated upon the assumption that you need 0.75 million/cells/° Plato (the George Fix assumption). So for an OG = 1.060 (14.7° Plato) and using a 5.25 gallon batch (Mr. Malty default) you would need:

0.75 x 19.9 (liters) x 14.7 = 219 billion cells.

So, how ‘valid’ is the George Fix assumption of 0.75 million/cells/° Plato?

Permit me to present an alternative viewpoint. From the Wyeast website:

“6. Do I need to make a starter for an Activator?

No. The Activator is designed to deliver professional pitch rates (6 million cells/ ml.) when directly added to 5 gallons of wort. ( <1.060 at 70 degrees). However, if a package is slow to swell, suspected of being mishandled, or if the date is approaching the six month shelf life it is a good idea to build the culture up with a starter. High gravity or low temperature fermentations require higher pitch rates. This can be achieved with inoculating with additional packages or making a starter.”

What is the equivalent pitch rate in units of cells/ml/° Plato that Wyeast would recommend (professional pitch rate)?

The value of 6 million cells/ml above already accounts for the typical homebrew volume of 5 gallons. So all we need to account for is degrees Plato. For the upper limit of OG = 1.060 (14.7° Plato) all we need to do is divide by 14.7:

6 million cells/ml ÷ 14.7 = 0.41 million cells/ml/° Plato.

So, Wyeast is of the opinion that a professional pitching rate for a 14.7° Plato beer is less than the George Fix assumed value of 0.75.

So, who should we as homebrewers believe? Is George Fix ‘right’? Is the professional pitching rate that Wyeast espouses ‘right’?

Each homebrewer needs to decide for themselves. My homebrewing experience has shown to me that the Wyeast values ‘work’ for me.

Cheers!

 

An interesting paragraph from the Mr. Malty website:

According to both White Labs and Wyeast, a White Labs Pitchable Yeast vial and a Wyeast ACTIVATORTM 125 XL Smack Pack both contain an average of 100 billion cells and are enough to pitch directly into 5 US gallons (18.9 liters) of an ale wort at 1.048 SG (12°P). This is a pitching rate of 5.3 million cells per milliliter, which is close to the pitching rate many professional breweries begin with when starting a new pitch of ale yeast. This rate works well because the health and vitality of fresh laboratory cultured yeast are superior to yeast harvested from normal fermentation. Both companies also concur that higher gravity worts, especially once they exceed a specific gravity of 1.060 (15°P), larger wort volumes, and lager fermentations all require higher pitching rates (or a starter) for optimum results.

http://www.mrmalty.com/starter_faq.php

Cheers!

 

I realize this discussion has all but run its course and I know there is a lot of good information out there on starters and pitch rates. I know Jamil has done a lot for homebrewers and a lot of work went into the mr malty pitch rate calcluator...but like Jack I do feel his pitch rates are a tad overdone when you start getting into "2.9" liter starters for a 1.065 beer. I picked up a couple a 2 liter erlenmeyer flasks a few years back because it's easier to make a starter in them and know your amounts. If it's in the 1.060 to 1.080 range I make a 2 liter starter, plain and simple and do quite well for myself.

When you start fretting over whether or not you are pitching with 237 billion or 270 billion, for me, you're worrying more than you need to.

 

Another thing to think about is that professional pitch rates by necessity are on the high end since they are repitching with the same yeast for multiple batches. If you are repitching from one batch to another as a homebrewer, professional pitch rates make sense. I don't. I look for a wyeast pack within a month of the manufacturer's date and buy a fresh pack for every batch. In a case like this, your pitch rates do not need to be as excessive as the professional pitch rates.

 

hahah of course high krausen regarding the starter

 

I think I will continue to make starters and beer that tastes great

Also, I have yet to encounter a White Labs vial or Wyeast smack-pack that was 100% fresh and viable. And I will take the conservative estimates of Mr. Malty and the YeastCalc folks any day over those of a manufacturer.

 

Of course you havne't. They lose about 30% of their cell count within the first month, so you're looking at anywhere between 70 to 100 billion if the manufactor date is within a month. That has nothing to do with whether or not someone feels the mr malty pitch rates are on the high end.

 

That was kind of my point, although looking back my intimation wasn't so clear.

The yeast manufacturer's recommendations of pitching straight from that one package into 5 gallons of ~1.050 ale wort are all well and good for yeast that is a week old or so. I don't even see yeast this young from any homebrew shop I've encountered (in person or online).

The bit about putting more trust in online yeast calculators is really a sepatate opinion I was stating (lost in the haste of my post).

 

That foaming is due to CO2 coming out of solution, which tells you the yeast are/have been active. This is a good thing. It's not unusual to either miss the krausen in a starter or for it to never really form (depending on strain and other factors), even though the starter is progressing fine. Keep swirling it occasionally. When it stops foaming much, it's about done.

 

As far as Professional pitch rate go another factor might be the pressure put on the yeast from the weight of the wort. I'm not sure if this will inhibit growth or not, just pondering. I think that fermentation is the biggest area were me have to really look to see why they do what they do. For instance they seem to need to ferment hotter, unless the cone of the conical is cooled they need to drop the yeast cake, etc.

And I agree that this is trail and error, but it does seem that in general fermentation is problematic for .. well all brewers. And one of the last things for a homebrewer to overcome and also something that helps to complete the favor profile is to get those last points of fermentation completed.

Also just to take a step back and review something. I miss-spoke about a high inoculation rate causing low cell reproduction. I had it backwards. At the time I thought that it was meaningful, if I would of been thinking I wouldn't even of mentioned it. I will admit that the cut off on a low rate and cell health is open for debate. VikeMan correctly questioned my thinking and I thank him for that. In hind-site I should of stopped when I said that I was incorrect.