Starter needed for a 1.065 OG?

Oh let me tell you about a conversation with a pro-brewer and I'll shut-up. Well Maybe.

I asked him what his pitch rate was. He said something like "four Liters of slurry into out fermentors". Again I ask about cell count. He said, "Oh, that. Heck if I know". He also make a great IPA.

So do I think that his rate if calculated would agree with Mr. Malty? Probably not.

 

Though it may be a bit overwhelming at first glance, this site will become a new friend the next time you make a starter:

http://www.yeastcalc.com/

If you're not stepping your starters, ignore the 2nd and 3rd steps. Just plug in the batch volume, type (ale/hybrid/lager), and target OG. Find the production date of your yeast and punch it in for viability, and then use the DME calculator once you've settled on the size and aeration method of the 1st step. Prost!

 

I don't think you used too much water for the amount of DME, but it's hard to say because it's really the weight of the DME that's important, not volume, which can be variable for a given weight. At any rate, lots of people pitch starters of this size into their beer worts. Personally, I cold crash the starter so the yeast go to the bottom, then decant and discard most of the liquid, leaving just enough to be able to swirl the yeast back into suspension before pitching into the beer wort.

 

I cannot even begin to sift through the shit being spewed in this thread.
One, maybe two or more may have a clue but I sure cannot tell from this thread.

To answer directly, yes you need a starter. I really do not care where the OG is starting. Split up your smakpacks/vials into smaller parcels and grow those yeast up. Save money and be sure you have the yeast you need.

All you need to know and more right here.

 

Excellent article - thanks for posting. I've read a bunch of literature on yeast health/growth/storage but never something so comprehensive. My favorite take-away lines:

"Thus it is important to always make a starter and make it a relatively big one.Remember that you want the yeast to spend most of their energy making alcohol not babies in a fermenter!!"

 

Yeah, but how do you really feel?

I homebrew, I know what I've done, I know my results. I don't need an article, just my experience.

 

Dr. MB Raines has talked at the NHC. Knows her stuff, and one can believe her information.

 

An interesting article, thanks for providing the link.

Within the article:

“The pitching rate is just the amount of yeast added to the fermenter. It is usually expressed as the amount of yeast found in 1 ml of wort after pitching. The recommended optimal pitching rates are 6-10 million cells/ml for ales and 10-15 million cells/ml for lagers. (George Fix recommends 10 million cells/ml for ales, 15 million cells/ml for lagers.)”

So, within that paragraph is a summary of much of the discussion in this thread on what is an ‘appropriately’ sized starter.

The pitching rate of 6 million cells/ml is what Wyeast mentions on their website for ales of OG < 1.060 at 70 degrees F.

As is detailed in the above paragraph the 10 million cells/ml is what George Fix recommends. The 10 million cells/ ml or more specifically the metric of 0.75 million cells/ml/degree Plato is the basic assumption within the Mr. Malty yeast calculator.

So, Dr. MB Raines recognizes that there is a range to what is an appropriate value to utilize to calculate pithing rates.

Each homebrewer should select which value ‘works’ for them and make starters of a given size accordingly. Dr. MB Raines is a wise person in recognizing that there is not a single number here that represents ‘truth’.

Cheers!

 

I have no doubt that she does. I have no doubt that Jamil knows his stuff either and there is a more user friendly article on starters on a free download by Jamil here: http://www.homebrewersassociation.org/pages/zymurgy/free-downloads.

My point is that anyone can post a link to an article and disparage the opinions of others, it is the interwebs after all. But I also know that I have pitched packs of wyeast directly into low gravity worts and come out with tremendously good beer. I also know that I have pitched simple 2 liter starters into beer as high as 1.080 and come out with tremendously good beer. I know that on my lazier days I have pitched two packets of yeast in place of a starter and come out with tremendously good beer. I have actually tried it multiple different ways, so when I state my opinion (which is simply my opinion) it isn't being pulled from thin air.

Controlling fermentation is important, but when someone rattles off something like "if the gravity is 1.065 make a 2.9 Liter starter, you have to inject pure oxygen, set your fermenation ambiant temp at 61 degrees, so that beer temp never goes above 65, doesn't matter if it's a Beligian, a hefeweizen, an english ale that you want fruity character with, any yeast will suck above 65 degrees and be a fusel/ester horrible trainweck and the heavens will crash down on your head and if anyone says differently they're stupid" that I tend to get a little annoyed.

 

Gregory,

Permit me to ‘second’ your opinion(s)!

As I related in a prior post just a week ago I pitched a Wyeast Activator pack (no starter) in a 1.046 OG Wit. I even made the bold statement of: “And guess what? That beer will turn out great.” How do I know this, you ask? Well, I have done this many times before and each of those beers turned out great.

The highest gravity beer that I have ever made had an OG = 1.075. I used a 1.5L starter for that beer. That beer turned out great too!

Reading articles/books/blogs etc. is a valuable ‘tool’ to learn things. I agree that personal experience is also valid; probably more valid because it is ‘real world’ information. Not all authors of printed material always have ‘accurate’ information.

There seems to be a bit of ‘mistrust’ concerning what the yeast vendors are publishing on their websites. I personally have never ‘experienced’ any bad information from either Wyeast or White Labs (I have utilized Wyeast yeasts much more than White Labs yeast). Based upon my ‘good’ experiences from these yeast vendors I trust what they publish and recommend. From my perspective they are the ‘experts’ since they propagate and sell beer & wine yeasts to commercial businesses (i.e., breweries, wineries, etc.) and homebrewers/home winemakers.

As regards your statement of “ …if anyone says differently they're stupid" that I tend to get a little annoyed” I can literally feel your pain. I tend to take solace in that I am permitted to: “Believe what you want.” This also has the benefit of reminding me of great Homer Simpson quotes which brings a smile to my face!

Cheers!

Jack

 

Gregory,

Thanks for the link to the article “Making a Starter” by Jamil Zainasheff. It was extremely well written.

I really liked the fact that Jamil ‘consulted’ the yeast vendors in writing this article:

“The answers to these questions are not only based on my experience and lab work, but from conversations with David Logsdon, founder/owner of Wyeast Laboratories, Inc., Greg Doss, Wyeast microbiologist, and Neva Parker, White Labs Inc. laboratory manager.”

Some other aspects of the article were very interesting to me.

“There is also an upper limit to how much yeast you should add. Logsdon says, “I try to stay within 20 percent of my ideal pitch rate and I prefer to slightly under pitch rather than over pitch. This causes more cell growth, more esters and better yeast health. Over pitching causes other problems with beer flavor, such as a lack of esters. Changes in the flavor profile are noticeable when the pitch rates are as little as 20 percent over the recommended amount.”

So, there appears to actually be a benefit to doing a slight (20%) underpitching. I think the benefit of “better yeast health” is very important.

“Most yeast experts say that when propagating yeast, moving at high krauesen is optimal. The time of high krauesen can range anywhere from a few hours to 24 or more.”

“I (Jamil) like to pitch starters while they're still very active and as soon as the bulk of reproduction is finished, usually within 12 to 18 hours.”

I found the above information to be extremely useful. I have posted several times on various BA threads that I preferred to pitch my yeast starters at high krausen since I had the opinion that pitching actively ‘growing’ yeast greatly aids in reducing lag time. The above quotes seem to ‘validate’ my personal approach.

As a note to others, there is indeed verbiage that it would not be appropriate to pitch the whole starter for the conditions of: “Of course, if you have a large starter volume in relation to your batch of beer or a starter that was continuously aerated, then you probably don’t want to pitch the entire starter into your wort.”

So, thanks again for the link. I learned a few new things which is always nice.

Cheers!

Jack