Mini-Mashing and MASSIVE extraction woes...

Discussion in 'Homebrewing' started by BedetheVenerable, Jun 3, 2012.

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  1. BedetheVenerable

    BedetheVenerable Initiate (0) Sep 5, 2008 Missouri

    Long post, I know, but you'd be a LIFE SAVER if you could give me any advice here!


    So in the last 2 weeks I've done more brewing than I've done in the past year or so, as I have a couple of weeks before summer classes start, and I have very little time to brew during school. I turned a Special Bitter that I brewed a week ago Thursday into my Tap-A-Draft system today (it was clear, at FG, and DELICIOUS) to condition, and moved a Cream Ale I brewed the same day over to a secondary to clear (apparently 1056 doesn't drop bright as quickly as I remember it doing). It was quite tasty as well. Both beers tasted GOOD out of the fermentors, which has NEVER happened to me before and, after several ruined/infected batches over the last couple of years, I was positively euphoric about these results.
    Nonetheless, both of those beers were mini-mashes, as was the barleywine I did today, and I had HORRIBLE extraction on all three. I hadn't done a mini mash since about a year and a half ago, when I'd done two, and had above expected extraction on both of them (i.e. with my extract added my OG was actually a bit high). Those mashes were, I believe, 2 lbs or 2.5 lbs of grain. My 'system' is a stainless steel Emeril's collander which fits inside a matching 8 QT stainless pot. It's a spaghetti strainer, basically. So I mash, drain the runnings, and slowly run a stream of water (via my auto-siphon) over the mash-bed to sparge. My mash temps were all good, as were my sparge temps. In fact, today, I even mashed (3.5 lbs) for 90 minutes at 150, hoping to get better extraction, and I was still some 10 pts. shy of my pre-boil target gravity as per Beer Smith. I had to (as last week) add DME, but today I ran out, and so I opted for a longer boil (see my other post).
    WHAT am I doing wrong? The grains come pre-crushed from NB, who seem to know their stuff. Last week in both beers I used small amounts of flaked adjuncts, without rice hulls. Is this a mistake? I was told for a mini mash, I prob. wouldn't use rice hulls, and so I didn't use them. I figured the gummy flaked maize and flaked barley might have been responsible, but today, I just had Maris Otter and Carapils, as well as some crystal. Same issue. Is it because I'm using MORE grain than the 2 lbs originally used? What can I do, if anything? I have a 5 gal. cooler mash-tun and COULD almost do AG, but I don't want to until I (a) find a way to insulate it better, and (b) figure out WHAT I'm DOING WRONG, so I don't ruin a whole batch! Thanks for ANY help you can give me!
     
  2. VikeMan

    VikeMan Grand Pooh-Bah (3,067) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah

    Let's pick one of your batches...let's say the MO/Carapils/Crystal....
    -How much of each grain did you use?
    -How much water in the mash?
    -Please describe exactly how you are using this collander
    -What was your OG measurement?
    -When did you measure it?
    -At what temp did you measure it?

    BTW, with a 5 gallon cooler, you could indeed do AG for low to mid gravity beers.
     
  3. BedetheVenerable

    BedetheVenerable Initiate (0) Sep 5, 2008 Missouri


    For that particular mash...

    -3 lbs Maris Otter (Warminster, if that matters)
    -8 oz. Carapils
    -16 oz. crystal, 4 oz. pale chocolate (I forgot to mash these steeping grains until the end...let them go another 30 min, on top of the already 60 min of the mini-mash). Mash temp was between 149-152. 42oz of water for each pound of grain, and same for the sparge, as per what I read long ago in some clone book. Measured the gravity after all fermentables were added to boil kettle with the water. Stirred well, took measure with eyedropper from a measuring cup full that I pulled out. Let sample cool to pretty much room temp (bulb of eyedropper submerged in cold water), measured via calibrated refractometer. My OG that I was shooting for was 1.077; I think I hit 1.066. I added extracts and a touch more sugar, and got it up to 1.071. I was out of extract, and the recipe already had a decent amount of sugar in it, so I just decided to go with it. Later I decided to do a 2-hr boil, which Beer Smith somehow didn't correct for, and my OG was WAY high, back into the barleywine range and far beyond what I'd originally expected, even without my mash woes. Anything else, juts ask!
     
  4. BedetheVenerable

    BedetheVenerable Initiate (0) Sep 5, 2008 Missouri

    Oh, and Vikeman, sorry, I forgot to mention the method! I add the preheated water to the grain in the small kettle, bust out all the doughballs and mix thoroughly, cover with tinfoil to maintain mash temps, put on the burner if I need to bump up the temp, etc. After the mash is complete, I pour the grain/water into the strainer (which is held above another pot) to drain. After this, I sprinkle the heated sparge water (170 degrees) via some tubing over the grain, draining it into the pot.
     
  5. HerbMeowing

    HerbMeowing Maven (1,295) Nov 10, 2010 Virginia
    Trader

    More grain often leads to lower efficiency...so that may have played a role this go'round when your grain bill was larger.
    Me thinks you had decent conversion but poor lautering and left a lot of sugar behind.
    What was your pre-sparge grain bed temperature and sparge water temperature?

    168°F water coming out of the auto-siphon is way too cool.
    Needs to be much higher to get a better rinse.

    Next time...taste test your grain bed after lautering
    If it's sweet...you're leaving money on the table.
     
  6. BedetheVenerable

    BedetheVenerable Initiate (0) Sep 5, 2008 Missouri

    Thanks! I thought I'd always read that sparge water was to be about 170 degrees, and that anything much higher could extract tannins and other nasties. Am I way off here? What's a better temp?
     
  7. HerbMeowing

    HerbMeowing Maven (1,295) Nov 10, 2010 Virginia
    Trader

    The idea is to get the grain bed temperature up to 168°F.
    Adding 170°F water to a 150°F grain bed won't get you anywhere near 168°F.

    Sparge water temperature may be hard to calculate using a 'drip through a colander' method.
    Maybe check the temp as the runnings come out the other side?
     
  8. BedetheVenerable

    BedetheVenerable Initiate (0) Sep 5, 2008 Missouri

    For the way I'm doing it with the mini-mashes with this particular equipment, would it be better/easier to submerge the 'collander' piece the kettle-full of sparge water instead, and then drain it, doing more of a 'batch sparge' thing?
     
  9. barfdiggs

    barfdiggs Initiate (0) Mar 22, 2011 California

    Other thing worth mentioning, from personal experience, is the crush of the grain from NB. Before I bought my own grain mill, I was ordering crushed grain from NB, and hitting about 60% efficiency. After having efficiency woes, I tried crushing grain at my LHBS and instantly had my efficiency jump up to 75% despite maxing out my mash run capacity (usually leads to decreased efficiency). Since switching to my home mill it's consistently been about 74%.
     
  10. HerbMeowing

    HerbMeowing Maven (1,295) Nov 10, 2010 Virginia
    Trader

    I'd be inclined to give it a try.

    Split the total sparge volume in two.
    Once the grains are submerged in Sparge1 water...stir well...cover...and rest ~10" before draining. Then onto Sparge2!
     
  11. VikeMan

    VikeMan Grand Pooh-Bah (3,067) Jul 12, 2009 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah

    I was hoping to be able to calculate the mini-mash efficiency you got, but since you took the OG with the DME/LME/sugar already added... Can you take your mini-mash grains out of your Beersmith Recipe and tell me what Beersmith says the OG should have been then? Trying to get an idea of how far off you really are efficiency-wise (and what Beersmith is assuming for you grains).

    Actually, if you could post the whole recipe (just the fermentables), that would be even better. I'm wondering if there might be a combination of low efficiency/high expectations (of Beersmith's part).
     
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