Berliner was a hit on taste, heavy cheese aroma.

Discussion in 'Homebrewing' started by jivex5k, Aug 5, 2014.

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  1. jivex5k

    jivex5k Initiate (0) Apr 13, 2011 Florida

    So I brought some raspberry Berliner homebrew to a share last night, everyone pretty much agreed the taste was nothing like the aroma. The aroma was heavy cheese, like blue (bleu?) cheese, the taste was lacto sour and raspberries. Discussing it with some other homebrewers no one seemed to know how that smell comes about or what to do to try and eliminate it, so I'll turn to this community once again for any input on the subject.

    The cheese aroma is definitely coming in after the sour mash process. I just use unmilled 2 row for the lacto, it holds steady at about 90F, takes about a day to cool from 120 to 90 under the heat lamp. Saran wrap over the mash but I had a paint strainer bag around the edges so possibly something could be getting in there.

    Following some advice from another thread here I'm going to alter my sour mash to minimize exposure to everything aside from the handful of grain, so if it's still in there after that the only thing I can do is try to keep the temp higher. Perhaps the cheese aroma is formed from an organism that will be inhibited at a higher temperature.

    I do a post sour mash boil and finish with a clean yeast.

    Anyway, just curious to any experience this community may have with this aroma, and if they have determined where it comes from. Thanks!
     
    #1 jivex5k, Aug 5, 2014
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2014
  2. SFACRKnight

    SFACRKnight Grand Pooh-Bah (3,348) Jan 20, 2012 Colorado
    Pooh-Bah Trader

    You using brett with it? I have had a lot of wilds that develop (I think) butyric acid. You get blue cheese and vomit in the aroma, but not usually in the flavors. Brett will eventually eat this up and produce tropical phenols with it instead. Give it time and it will go away.
    EDIT: check out Chad Jakobsen's write up on brett. I believe he covers it.
     
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  3. jivex5k

    jivex5k Initiate (0) Apr 13, 2011 Florida

    No brett, just sacc. Any wild brett from the grain will be killed in the boil after the sour mash. Possible I could get some wild brett from the air when I was cooling the mash from 140 to 120 with the lid off. If it is butryic acid then I need to increase my temperature. There was a detailed post about it on HBT and how it does not need oxygen to form. I could line a cardboard box with foil, maybe that would help keep temp up, or get a larger wattage heat lamp.
     
  4. fistfight

    fistfight Initiate (0) Jan 13, 2006 Massachusetts

    Low PH is another good inhibitor of unwanted organisms. Maybe you could add a bit of lactic acid after the mash to get it into the mid 4s?
     
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  5. jivex5k

    jivex5k Initiate (0) Apr 13, 2011 Florida

    I should get a ph meter, but based on taste alone I am getting a lot of lactic acid naturally from the sour mash.
     
  6. fistfight

    fistfight Initiate (0) Jan 13, 2006 Massachusetts

    But the PH doesn't start low, it gets there over a couple of days, right? I was guessing that some bug was able to get at the sugar early and release butyric acid before the lacto could effectively kill it off later in the sour mash. Granted I haven't actually had any success with sour mashes before, they always smell terrible, but after a bunch of research were I to do it again I would lower the PH directly after conversion.
     
  7. jivex5k

    jivex5k Initiate (0) Apr 13, 2011 Florida

    Yeah that's a good point, might be worth a shot. The sour mash didn't smell bad, just blue cheese and lemon sour.
     
  8. inchrisin

    inchrisin Pooh-Bah (2,013) Sep 25, 2008 Indiana
    Pooh-Bah

    I'm not a pro at sour beers, by any means. I'd still be willing to point a finger at your yeast choice and the age of the beer. Maybe I missed it, but I don't think you said how old the beer is. You know how you get that rotten egg sulfur smell from some yeasts when the beer is young, and then it goes away? I'm thinking it could be the same thing here. I just got done with a Berliner, (I'll follow up in another post once it has some bubbles), that's under two weeks old. Does it smell like cheese? Yes!
     
  9. dbrese

    dbrese Initiate (0) Jan 4, 2011 Vermont

    I've had the same experience twice, both with pre-souring methods like sour mash and sour worting with grains. It seems to be either a sign of fermentation stress on the yeast due to the harsh low pH wort environment or a pre-cursor compound produced during the souring that is then converted by the yeast into the cheesy aroma. Pre-culturing the Lactobacillus and lowering the starter wort for the culture below pH 4.5 eliminated this problem for me. P.S., adding Brett may only make things worse if it is butrytic acid. Nasty.
     
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  10. jbakajust1

    jbakajust1 Pooh-Bah (2,552) Aug 25, 2009 Oregon
    Pooh-Bah

    May not be cheese that you are smelling, but another familiar dairy product... real yogurt. Grab a container of good fresh yogurt from a local farmer (not the stuff in the store) and give it a big wiff right after opening. Might be the same smell.
     
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  11. FATC1TY

    FATC1TY Pooh-Bah (2,564) Feb 12, 2012 Georgia
    Pooh-Bah


    I think this is a solid suggestion, and it's a bit of a cheat that I do as well. I add in around 5mL's of lactic acid 88% last time to the wort, and left it be. I haven't had any issues with off flavors or aromas, and I get it soured into the mid to high 3's.

    I sour wort, instead of souring the whole mash, so YMMV.
     
  12. jivex5k

    jivex5k Initiate (0) Apr 13, 2011 Florida

    Yeah it's only been in the bottle a week. I'll hide a 6 pack from myself and see how it ages. The perception last night was unanimously blue cheese, maybe that's what fresh yogurt smells like. I haven't eaten yogurt since I was 12.
     
  13. jivex5k

    jivex5k Initiate (0) Apr 13, 2011 Florida

    How do you culture the lacto? Throw some wild grains in a small starter, put it in a mason jar under heat?
     
  14. SFACRKnight

    SFACRKnight Grand Pooh-Bah (3,348) Jan 20, 2012 Colorado
    Pooh-Bah Trader

    From what I am reading butyric acid is produced from lacto and not brett. The brett is used to take the unwanted butyric acid and turn it into some bomb ass tropical flavors. That being said, I would use some brett with whatever sacc yeast you pitch next time and really let it go.
     
  15. jivex5k

    jivex5k Initiate (0) Apr 13, 2011 Florida

    Yeah it would probably be tasty, something to try once I have a good stock built up. For now I'm going to line a cardboard box with foil to try and raise my heat lamp effectiveness, and minimize exposure to airborne organisms during the sour mash moreso than I have in the past. If this isn't doing the trick I will add some lactic acid, but it does feel like cheating for some stupid reason lol.

    I appreciate all the responses guys, this place has been a wealth of knowledge for me.
     
  16. ryane

    ryane Initiate (0) Nov 21, 2007 Washington

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  17. FeDUBBELFIST

    FeDUBBELFIST Pooh-Bah (1,765) Oct 31, 2009 Pennsylvania
    Pooh-Bah

    OP - next Berliner I would take EXTRA care to sanitize the mash tun where you are sour mashing in. Just to eliminate one more possible source of unwanted bugs.
     
  18. ryane

    ryane Initiate (0) Nov 21, 2007 Washington

    Read the link I posted above, it outlines the procedure Ive developed over time to handle making a wild starter and gives the reasoning behind the approach

    High temps IMO arent a beneficial environment for a sour mash, as the culture is mixed (yeast + bacteria) so you can get off flavors from high temp yeast metabolism. pH is the biggest thing for inhibiting bad flavors/aromas, it kills the nasty bacteria off, adding chalk helps to buffer the acidity as well because lactic bacteria will actually inhibit themselves with their acid production
     
  19. ryane

    ryane Initiate (0) Nov 21, 2007 Washington

    I make it like I do my normal starter in a 500mL-2L flask (depending on size), no airlock (you want air in there!) with foil on the top
     
  20. ryane

    ryane Initiate (0) Nov 21, 2007 Washington

    acetobacter need ethanol before they can make acetic acid, in the starter wort there is very little ethanol, and even if you end up with some in the starter when you pitch it into wort and the culture begins to ferment (driving the environment anaerobic) and there is alcohol to convert, there wont be any O2 in solution, with my approach Ive personally never had noticeable amounts of vinegar form

    That said, IMO just about any sour benefits from very very small amounts of acetic acid, especially small quantities are difficult for most people to differentiate from other acids (notable lactic) and IMO a small amout improves the depth of flavor slightly
     
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