Bias for US Beer?

I wish I could try those Saison. save me from trying to brew my own dupont clone, lol sometimes I am lazy.

 

“Haven't had a great tripel that can stand up to Belgian, but have had the privilege of tasting saisons from Hill Farmstead and other American brewers doing them well. I can safely say I have had some American versions that are world class by anyone's standards.” Yeah, verily!

Dave, permit me to opine on what you posted. I have had many very, very high quality Belgian style beers brewed by local brewpubs. When it comes to the Saison style, both Tired Hands and Forest & Main for example make excellent Saison beers.

I will discuss Tired Hands a bit more. The owner/brewer is Jean Broillet and he is a very, very talented brewer. I have had a number of various Saison beers at Tired Hands and I have enjoyed them all. Recently I had a Saison called Red Fuss which was OUTSTANDING! Description below:

“Red Fuzz: Raspberry & Sumac Saison. 6.5% Brewed with wheat and fresh sumac. Hopped with Cascade. Fermented atop fresh raspberries. Love the Fuzz.

-Notes of lemongrass, cucumber, honeysuckle, meadow flowers, and kiwi. “

Tired Hands has only been open a couple of years. It is my prediction that in a few more years beer connoisseurs will be speaking of Jean Broillet with the same reverence as they presently speak of Shaun Hill (Hill Farmstead).

You made specific mention of “Haven't had a great tripel that can stand up to Belgian”. I certainly agree with that from a packaged beer perspective. About 1-2 years ago a local brewpub (Iron Hill – Phoenixville) made a Tripel they called Schelde Tripel. They used a Wyeast VSS strain to make that beer. The Schelde Tripel was OUTSTANDING! It was most certainly equivalent to Westmalle Tripel (my favorite Tripel). Unfortunately this beer was only on for 1-2 months (but I got my fair share of that awesome beer).

Cheers!

Jack

P.S. Tired Hands also makes a number of excellent hoppy beers (APAs, IPAs, etc,)

 

,.I could bottle I guess... That is what I do. Bottle Conditioned beers hold up very, very well.

Cheers!

 

Apologies for taking the conversation off-topic, but if you like Chicago-style pizza, and it's available in your area, try a Home Run Inn frozen pizza. They're not the traditional deep-dish pizzas one equates with Chicago-style, but they're DARN good. And the frozen ones are ALMOST as good as the fresh ones in the restaurant. You can search for them here, http://www.homeruninnpizza.com/hri-finder

Now back to the original conversation...

 

Going with what @JackHorzempa and @cavedave said above- about US made saisons being world class, and on par with other international versions.

I think US saisons/farmhouse ales are more easily identified as world class because they don't need to be compared to international saisons. The saison is such a blank canvas style, it seems- anything and everything can be done to a saison/farmhouse ale, and it'll still be a saison/farmhouse ale, because it's such a broad style.

A lot of people, like @herrburgess and others, take issue with American-made versions of German styles, because the style isn't so broad- the ingredients that go into a pilsner are much more defined than the ingredients that go into a saison. With a pilsner, if certain hops and malts aren't used, it's not going to taste much like a pilsner. But a whole plethora of different ingredients could be used in a saison, and it'd still be identifiable as a saison.

Hill Farmstead Arthur, my absolute favorite saison, and a near flawless beer, in my humble opinion, is quite different than say, one of the standard bearers for Belgian saison, Saison Dupont. Arthur is juicy, citrusy, pillowy, and a bit tart- while Dupont is spicy, bitter, and fairly hoppy. Same style, very different, and both world class (IMO, of course.)

note: Is there any real difference between a saison and a farmhouse ale? Calling on someone smarter than me to answer that one.

 

They're actually funky names for a "style." A farmhouse ale is just an ale brewed on a farm, while saison simply means seasonal. The phrase comes from any refreshing ale brewed on farms in Belgium for summer seasonal farmhands. So really if you made a stout on a farm, that could be a farmhouse ale, and if the stout was made for a specific season, it could be a saison (I think).

However, saison in the way it's normally used by the craft beer community references beers with traits similar to Saison Dupont.

 

For the most complete answer I would recommend you read the book Farmhouse Ales by Phil Markowski.

IMO, there are two styles that fit within the beer class of Farmhouse Ale: Saison and Bière de Garde.

As you have already made mention of, the Saison beer style is a very, very broad beer style with lots of latitude. IMO the same can be said of the Bière de Garde style.

Something you might like to read: http://www.realbeer.com/edu/6-pack/

Cheers!

P.S. An interesting quote from Phil Markowski in the linked article:

“Americans are the most creative brewers in the world and I believe that is a result of our having more freedom, freedom from having to uphold old established traditions. We can still respect established styles and traditions but that is no reason hold back from creating new ones.”

 

Point me to a local shop that has a wide assortment of quality imports available at the same price-point as equivalent US brews and I will happily lose my 'bias'. But as long as I have to pay as much for a single bottle of an import as I do for a 6er of a quality US brew, and as long as the imports at my local shop only take up one shelf, I will continue to favor buying and trying US beers. Although I can appreciate the quality of some imports when I have the chance to try them.

 

Interesting read in that links, thanks. I'll have to be on the lookout for that book, too.

You mentioned Forest and Main above- I've tried one of their saisons, Moeder Seizoen, and really liked it. It fit nice and squarely into my preferred end of the saison spectrum- wild, funky, fruity, etc. Very tasty.

 

I have not had the pleasure of drinking Moeder Seizoen, Forest & Main (and Tired Hands for that matter) make so many different brands of Saison. Below is the list on BA for reviews of Forest & Main Saison beers. I also really like the British style beers that are made at Forest & Main.

Cheers!



Août Houblon Saison / Farmhouse Ale 4.50 3.75 1 -

Banjo Saison / Farmhouse Ale 4.50 3.96 9 -

Chauve Souris Bière de Garde 6.00 4.05 4 -

Cosette Saison / Farmhouse Ale 4.00 - 0

Douteux Saison / Farmhouse Ale 6.00 3.63 2 -

Enfant Terrible Saison / Farmhouse Ale 5.00 4.19 4 -

Entre Amis Saison / Farmhouse Ale 6.00 3.75 2 -

Folk Saison / Farmhouse Ale 3.80 3.76 5 -

Funk Fox Saison / Farmhouse Ale 5.00 3.88 2 -

Le Jeune Saison / Farmhouse Ale 5.00 4.18 7 -

Manu Negra Saison / Farmhouse Ale 8.00 4.08 44 -

Marius (Peach) Saison / Farmhouse Ale 6.00 3.76 33 -

Marius (Plum) Saison / Farmhouse Ale 6.00 4.05 34 -

Moeder Seizoen Saison / Farmhouse Ale 7.00 4.14 27 -

Naked Knees Saison / Farmhouse Ale 5.00 3.97 9 -

Nalanda Saison / Farmhouse Ale 6.50 3.88 6 -

Nalanda (Wine Barrel Aged) Saison / Farmhouse Ale 6.00 4.5 6 -

Never Saison Saison / Farmhouse Ale 7.00 3.56 4 -

Noir Saison / Farmhouse Ale 4.50 3.78 5 -

Paloluna Saison / Farmhouse Ale 5.00 4.34 1 -

Palomino Saison / Farmhouse Ale 4.50 3.83 23 -

Paradisaea Saison / Farmhouse Ale 6.50 4.22 31 -

Petite Noir Saison / Farmhouse Ale 3.80 3.55 5 -

Reveche Saison / Farmhouse Ale 5.00 4.12 2 -

Saison AloofSaison / Farmhouse Ale 5.70 4.16 2 -

Saison De Pardieu Saison / Farmhouse Ale 3.60 4.1 11 -

Saison De Part Deux Saison / Farmhouse Ale 3.60 - 0 -

Saison Des Tiers Saison / Farmhouse Ale 5.00 4.19 8 -

Saison Lunaire Saison / Farmhouse Ale 5.00 4.08 51 -

Saison Solaire Saison / Farmhouse Ale 4.50 3.91 37 -

Solaire Reserve Saison / Farmhouse Ale 5.00 3.78 26 -

St. Mary Reserve Saison / Farmhouse Ale 7.00 3.67 20 -

St. Mary Saison Saison / Farmhouse Ale 7.00 3.67 3 -

Truculence Saison / Farmhouse Ale 10.00 3.75 3 -

Yggdrasil Saison / Farmhouse Ale

 

This. It harkens back to the thread that was on here a bit ago to the effect of "if you don't like [beer] then you don't like [style]". One of the recurring themes in that thread was that there are certain styles with which you can't do that exercise, because the style itself is so broad that it's impossible to identify a quintessential version of it.

It's hard to discuss American vs. Belgian saisons in the context of "does the American version stand up to the classic Belgian version?" because what is the classic Belgian version? Many on this site will tell you that it's Saison Dupont, and for the purposes of comparing to American takes, maybe that's the correct answer, since so many American brewers seek to emulate it. But it's also worth noting that Saison Dupont is far higher in alcohol than the origins of the farmhouse "style", and it's not at all tart, which it's likely that original saisons were, due to native microflora in the air on the farms where saisons were brewed. Under that lens, it's hard to call Dupont "classic".

In many ways, "saison/farmhouse" is a catchall style, similar to American Strong Ale. Even the style description on BA starts out with a paragraph talking about the context of the beer's origins, rather than the characteristics of the style. Although it does move into characteristics:

"This is a very complex style; many are very fruity in the aroma and flavor. Look for earthy yeast tones, mild to moderate tartness. Lots of spice and with a medium bitterness. They tend to be semi-dry with many only having touch of sweetness."

 

“Many on this site will tell you that it's Saison Dupont…”

For the sake of discussion let’s say that Saison Dupont is the “classic version”. What other Saison made in Belgium tastes exactly like Saison Dupont?

Cheers!

 

In my opinion there are some absolutely fantastic beers coming out of Europe (Cantillon, 3F, Westvleteren, etc.), but compared to the volume of great beers currently being produced in the US Europe just pales in comparison. There's no doubt that some of those brewers in Europe (especially the likes of Cantillon) have a leg up when it comes to producing consistently phenomenal beers, but they've also been doing it a lot longer! As far as other styles being in the Top X, I again think it comes down to volume, and to a certain extent accessibility. There are simply WAY more IIPAs and IStouts being made than sours/saisons/etc. Sours especially are much more difficult to come by, and therefore get fewer ratings, ergo lower ranking because # of reviews factors into ranking. And lastly, as mentioned in other posts, there simply are more American BAs, and therefore they will be rating more of what they have access to. I could go on and on, but I really think the points above give a good overall view of the factors involved. Is there some bias? I'm sure there is in some cases, but then again I know BAs that have massive biases for European made beer, so I don't think it proves anything or matters much in the end.

 

Well, except for numerous earlier "craft" breweries in San Francisco, Sonoma and other California towns, as well as Boulder, Albany, Portland, Seattle, New York City, Kalamazoo, Milwaukee, Little Rock, "and many more" (as they said in those old anthology record album TV commercials).... before Harpoon opened in 1986. So, a couple of years before a contract brewer out of Pittsburgh built a pilot brewery in a section of the defunct Haffenreffer brewery in Jamaica Plain .

 

You very politely tip-toe and phrase everything carefully, OP, but I gotta say, are you new here? hahaha

I don't think there is any doubt about it... That said, it is an American website (with a bizarre rule about posts in anything but English), started by Americans, because of the American craft movement so whatever...

It's once you run into people that have obviously drawn all or most of their experience in drinking beer from 'big' American beers trying to shit on other countries' brewing, quality, laws (I'm looking at you, blathering, militant anti-Reinheitsgebot people), etc. that you really gotta scratch your head and take deep breaths.

 

homerism > facts

 

Well, that's a question that may not have an acceptable answer. I've had a lot of saisons, but I don't think I've had one that tastes quite like Dupont. But then again, I've not had any that taste quite like Tank 7 either...

 

Your post is fair.

The obtuse point I was trying to drive at is that a person could make a claim like: US brewers can’t make ‘authentic’ Saison beers because none of the US brewed Saisons taste like Saison Dupont. My reply to that said person would be: then none of the other Belgium brewers that make Saison beers make ‘authentic’ Saisons since none of their beers taste exactly like Saison.

How a Saison tastes can be influenced by a number of factors but the principle factor is yeast strain selection and fermentation process. IMO, no other brewery (US or non-US) can completely imitate precisely what is done for the brewing of Saison Dupont. My personal take away on that is: so what.

Cheers to the diversity of Saison beers (US and non-US)!

 

Dude! So the "fantastic" beer coming out of Europe revolves solely around the number 1 rated quad, and the two (beer geek boner-inspiring) breweries that brew the most sought after euro sours? Surprise surprise. No love at all for Germany or the UK? Europe pales in comparison eh?

What's the basis for your thoughts here? I.e. if you lived in Europe for a few years, traveled extensively, and just decided you didn't like what was on offer, then fair play - we can agree to disagree. But if the basis is some old bottles of Sammy Smith, Bluebird and Weihenstephaner that were sitting on the shelves in NJ, then.... well i'm at a loss.

@cavedave case in point here re: earlier conversation in this thread

 

Yep, well aware of Anchor, which is of course the oldest modern craft brewery (great story on it this spring in "All About Beer"). But Sam Adams was in Boston in 1985 and most of the others are long gone or came after, even Pete's Wicked (1986), which was my favorite. Sierra is older too. Who else is (honest curiosity)? My point had more to do with the modern craft beer industry, which I think BBC has shaped more than anyone else. Not homerism, as I've lived in NoCal, and KC and elsewhere.