Two Hearted Clone Recipe Critique

I apologize if you found my post to be obnoxious.

You may view it as a single data point, I don’t.

Permit me to remind you that John Palmer and Jamil Zainasheff appear to be convinced of scientific results: The Brewing Network podcast is a discussion between John Palmer and Jamil Zainasheff. I enjoyed hearing what they had to say but I think their discussion on this topic is well summarized by: that recent scientific studies “…measured the amount of alpha (acids) going into solution and it does not depend on wort gravity.”

If you want to continue to believe ‘conventional wisdom’ please do so. John Palmer, Jamil Zainasheff and Jack Horzempa think otherwise.

Cheers!

 

“10% is not very, very slight.” I am assuming this the difference in IBU values?

As a reminder, James Spencer was very adroit in recognizing that the proper metric to compare the three batches is the BU/GU ratio (to account for the varying Starting Gravity values).

Permit me to do the math:

· For the full wort boil: BU/GU = 66/76 = 0.868

· For the partial boil: BU/GU = 61/70 = 0.871

· For the partial boil with late extract addition: BU/GU = 57/66 = 0.864

Give the measurement accuracies of Specific Gravity and the IBU measurement these BU/GU values are identical. No variation whatsoever.

Cheers!

 

I actually listened to that podcast first, and heard nothing out of the ordinary, so I chose to listen to the second before I spouted off. In the Palmer & Jamil podcast they essentially are repeating that wort gravity does not affect utilization, while offering up reasons why IBUs are lower in higher gravity brews (break materials, yeast, etc... - As Vikeman suggested before).

They never suggested that making 3 gallons of brew with one ounce of hops will yield *MORE* IBUs than 5 gallons with 1 oz of the same hop. This is what needs to happen when you dilute something. It is a stupefying result. To get the same (overall) utilization when diluting vs a full boil, they actually need to get HIGHER utilization in the boil as the IBUs get diluted. I can believe (as Palmer & Jamil do) that utilization between a full and partial boil is the same in the boil but when it is diluted it would be lower. This is the result I am having trouble with, proportionately greater utilization (per gallon of wort) in a smaller boil.

Also, they also did a ~3 gallon boil for their partial boil, which if they did hit the maximum of 90-100 IBUs in their wort gets diluted to ~55-60 IBUs. I would like to see them try a 2 gallon boil diluted to 5 to replicate a 70 IBU IPA, I don't believe it can work. Lastly, the hop aroma could easily stem from the cooling. It takes longer to cool more wort (especially if you just add an equivalent amount of cold water to shock the wort) so more volatiles are being blown off. This is what I meant by the recipe being different. The processes can't be the same (same cooling time & curve for the worts). There are too many variables here.

And regardless of what you believe it to be, a single experiment is a single result and while it raises questions, it hardly disproves past scientific work.

 

Are you cognizant that there was indeed “past scientific work” which yielded differing scientific results?

My understanding is that the conventional wisdom that partial boils would result in lower hop utilization was based upon this ‘assumption’ within the various hop utilization estimators (e.g., Tinseth, Rager).

If you are aware of “past scientific work” and the results of this work I would very much like to read it (or listen to it).

I was under the impression that the experiment conducted by BBR-BYO was the first truly scientific analysis of this particular sort.

Cheers!

 

This is partly where my reservations were coming from earlier (low sample size in the BYOBBR studies) except that I wasn't thinking of cold fusion. That gives me an idea: cold fusion, cold beer, ...maybe homebrew could solve the worlds energy problems.

But on a more serious note, it sounds like there is another study that lends credence to the idea that partial boil may not mean what we thought it did, in terms of IBUs extracted from hops. See Vikeman's post above.

 

Rager and Tinseth are scientific works in which they attempted to create formulae base upon numerous data points relating to gravity, volume & extracted IBUs. While they knew that their data was not perfect, they attempted to create formulae for brewers. To suggest that this barely scientific "study" of 3 worts created very differently is the first truly scientific analysis is quite simply absurd.

Furthermore, it is well established that 90-100 IBUs is the real maximum of extracted IBUs. If you really want sources, I will let you look them up, as you apparently are well versed in brewing science, as this one internet podcast you cite continues to be your primary (though I am sure not sole) source.

 

I read it and IIRC have seen it elsewhere too (Palmer & Z mentioned it). I was playing with the formulae on Hopville (Tineseth / Rager / etc...) and it looks like it may be close to linear between volumes, except when playing up against the maximum 100 IBU level. The 'study' was of a 60 IBU beer with a 3 gallon boil, almost the perfect level to reach 60 IBUs. If they had dropped the boil further, it would have been worse.

The never mentioned chilling once, which would definitely affect hop volatiles (flavour & aroma) massively. If you chilled the 3 gallons in a minutes by adding cold water vs. chilling a 5 gallon boil with warm water for 30 minutes, that explains the qualitative difference in hop flavours.

 

Confirmation of the "gravity doesn't affect hops utilization", from a 1989(!!) American Society of Brewing Chemists journal:

ASBC Journal 1989 - Hop Utilization in the Brewery-An Interbrewery Comparison.

"In the range 10.5-13.5° P, no relationship between hop utilization and original gravity was found."

 

Oh look, an old IPA thread. Hmmm, I wonder if.... Oh. Yeah.

 

This thread contains one of the more impressive passive aggressive duels I've ever witnessed, well played all.

 

let me know how the final clone turns out mCaudio. I am interested in doing a two hearted clone

 

Thank-you.

 

Forgive me if I'm wrong here, and also forgive me if this a repeat statement ( not sure if it was stated because I got tired of the bickering back and forth and stopped reading) but isn't Two Hearted ALL Simcoe hopped?

 

From Bells website:

"Two Hearted Ale is defined by its intense hop aroma and malt balance. Hopped exclusively with the Centennial hop varietal from the Pacific Northwest, massive additions in the kettle and again in the fermenter lend their characteristic grapefruit and pine resin aromas. A significant malt body balances this hop presence; together with the signature fruity aromas of Bell's house yeast, this leads to a remarkably drinkable American-style India Pale Ale."

 

I stand corrected, thank you for clearing that up. In my head I pictured the back label on the bottle saying Simcoe hops but I don't think it lists one at all.

 

I didn't go back to reread the entire thread, but if no one posted a link to Northern Brewer's Dead Ringer Recipe, which is a commerical clone kit, I apologize for all of us for getting dragged off topic. Here's how NB does it:

Extract: http://www.northernbrewer.com/documentation/beerkits/DeadRingerIPA.pdf
All-Grain: http://www.northernbrewer.com/documentation/allgrain/AG-DeadRingerIPA.pdf

Did your recipe end up looking like one of these?

EDIT: Dead Ringer used to be called Three-Hearted but supposedly Bells threatened with a lawsuit. I've never brewed the clone kit but it has been reviewed favorably in this forum's archives.

 

I haven't brewed the kit, but it looks pretty close to an IPA recipe that I have brewed a few times. And though not intended as a clone, it's within spitting distance of Two Hearted, which is probably my favorite easy drinking IPA.