Group brew AK? Comments? Volunteers?

Why?

 

Primarily because Windsor has the attribute of being a moderate attenuating yeast strain. When I homebrew with it, I regularly achieve attenuation below 75%. It is my personal experience that the Nottingham strain is highly attenuating. In my homebrewing with Nottingham, I regularly achieve attenuation of around 80%. When you consider that the Eldridge Pope recipe has 1.6 lbs. of sugar (invert sugar) the aspect of achieving an Apparent Attenuation of 74.47% seems challenging. Maybe a very high temperature mash could achieve a wort with lots of dextrins but I am dubious about the overall wort given the 1.6 lbs. of sugar.

In my opinion, Danstar Windsor is better suited for this recipe. Again, just my opinion.

Cheers!

 

Invert #2, halfway through the process... This stuff makes a mess during the vigorous part of the boil. Note the splash-spooge everywhere. Ironically, the hotter it gets, the less vigor (once you're into the syrupy stage). Temperature control is a bitch. I have a new found respect for candy makers.

 

This would be my preference too, if I were choosing dry yeasts. If I were choosing liquid, I probably would go with West Yorkshire, because I really enjoyed it in a previous homebrew somewhat styled after an AK. Of course, I never actually had a commercial example and was just basing it off some less detailed info from posts by patto1ro and Marquis and using ingredients that were somewhat at the ready: Maris Otter, homemade amber sugar syrup, Golden Naked Oats, and Whitbread Goldings. I don't suppose the GNOs were at all traditional, but I have fonder memories of very few beers.

 

Peter, I am also a fan of the West Yorkshire yeast (1469); I have homebrewed with it several times. I have always achieved an Apparent Attenuation ≥ 80% with this yeast. I homebrewed a Bitter Ale using 1469 which I bottled a few months ago (June) where I obtained 83%. Needless to say but what AA% one achieves is dependent on the fermentability of the wort.

Considering that the Pope Eldridge recipe calls for 1.6 lbs. of sugar I have a hard time envisioning obtaining 74.47% AA for this beer using Wyeast 1469. Maybe if you mash at 160°F? Even then I have doubts.

Cheers!

 

Jack, your experience in this yeast's attenuation is not too different from mine. The beer I brewed with 1469 had and OG of 1.045, including 3/4 # of sugar. I mashed at 154F, and it attenuated to 1.007, so 84% apparent attenuation. The grist included 10% GNO (1#), so perhaps that helped retain enough body to keep me very interested in this beer. Since the recipe being considered has double the sugar and no crystal malt/oats, there probably is a risk of taking the FG too low if 1469 were used here.

 

Yep, my Grandma makes all manner of nut brittles and jams/preserves. She's crazy accurate without a candy thermometer, I don't see how she does it. I guess just doing it for 60 or so years continually. Makes you wonder how much olden days brewers relied on numbers and science. Of course, she has her bad batches every now and again.

 

So... looking at the mash thickness in the recipe... 0.83 qt/lb. I've never mashed that thick. I wonder if that's responsible for low fermentability, in spite of the mash temp and long mash time. I know Kai Troester didn't find any significant differences in fermentability based on mash thickness, but IIRC, he also didn't go that radically low.

Another thought... @patto1ro , do you think the fairly low fermentability of the Pope recipe may have been due to the ingredients of the day?

Another another thought... This recipe has a lot of simple sugar in the invert #2, and uses a fairly large percentage of it... I wonder if the high fermentability of the invert is offset somewhat by a historical failure to add nutrients to a relatively nutrient poor wort, perhaps causing the yeast to concentrate somewhat on the simple sugars and leave behind a fair amout of higher sugars.

Another question for @patto1ro ... has this recipe been brewed "as is" (including Nottingham or WLP099) and got the FG results quoted in the recipe?

 

Here is Kristens write up about brewing the Pope AK. I am new to this thread so apologies if T's been run over several times already.
http://barclayperkins.blogspot.com/2013/01/lets-brew-wednesday-1896-eldridge-pope.html

 

The fermentability doesn't look all that low to me. It's near as dammit 75% attenuation. I've seen much worse than that.

Can't really answer to if it's been brewed as is.

 

Thanks for that. It doesn't seem like he ever actually says that he has brewed the recipe. And some of his words, where he talks about ingredients that "could" be used, make it sound like he hadn't. He does suggest under-pitching and under-oxygenating, which I had thought about doing. So...maybe, though it will be hard to bring myself around to executing that idea!

 

Some good questions posed. It seems that many of the period recipes seem to have low attenuation. My gut says that is a result of more than just high mash temps.

I was going to go with the assumption that the malts of that day were well modified as the English maltsters seem to be famous for. So my plan to hit the FG was to mash high and then adjust fermentation parameters, ie pitch less yeast, reduce O2, ferment on the cooler side. It seems Kristen has taken this tack in his write up.

The other interesting thing that is mentioned is that Flaked Barley might have been used. That would certainly change things.

It would be nice to know what FG Kristen hit too.

 

So have I . But with the wort that should result from those particular ingredients, and the two-hour mash at 151F, it's going to be a challenge to keep the FG that high. Which is why I asked if it's actually been brewed this way, with modern ingredients.

 

Hadn't thought about that. Though it would explain why one recipe with all Cluster hops was described as Citrusy and Piney and another all CLuster hops recipe was described as Catty

 

Any updates on this group brew? Fell ill this past weekend so was unable to brew, but have some friends rolling into town on Friday who are excited to brew so will hopefully be brewing it on Saturday.
My plan is to mash in the 160F range which should allow both the pseudo-Hardy & AK clones to finish hopefully on the higher end of the spectrum. Picked up some molasses to get the invert going tonight.

In other news, finally got my water report from Ward and it confirmed numbers I got from the LaMotte water test kit. Realize I'm not the only one who may have funky water, but very hard water with only 3ppm sulfates (pretty high sodium & chloride levels as well)...it escapes me the reason for such low sulfates considering the geologic origins of the bedrock my water comes from.

 

I think I am going to do this on Sat. if I can get the invert done on Fri.

 

Only just noticed this series of posts. I'm keen to jump onboard also, although obviously swapping end results will be a little difficult

Hopefully I can get it started in the next week or two.
Not sure on how similar my results will be, as it will depend on what brands of malt I can find.

 

I couldn't find the "How my AK turned out" thread, if there is one. I kegged mine tonight. So far, the taste is kind of an unremarkable Bitter. Nothing offensive about it, but my guess is that this won't become my house beer. Or maybe it will...it still has to carb up. More about taste in 2 or 3 weeks I guess.

A few other observations I can make right now...
- Color seems about right, probably more luck than anything, since it was pretty hard to judge when the invert syrup was done.
- Attenuation...I was worried about getting a too high attenuation given the recipe and the attenuation called for in the recipe. And...even with tweaks to mash temp and length, and yeast selection to try to limit attenuation, it came out at 79.6%. (BrewCipher had predicted 79.5%, so I wasn't too surprised...and no, it's not always that close.) The recipe had called for 74.47%.
- I used Wyeast 1275 and confirmed my previous impression about this strain...it seems to have a great affinity for beer and an aversion to the bottom of the carboy. I didn't cold crash. Though I guess I am now, in the keg.

 

http://www.beeradvocate.com/community/threads/eldridge-pope-ak-results.214226/#post-2841730

here's the link

 

Did you adjust the amount of oxygenation and/or pitch rate at all to help lower attenuation?