Is German beer really THAT good?

So there's currently only very few amazing Steam or Pumpkin beers coming out of Germany?

 

I lived in Germany for nearly a decade, married a German, and have been back at least every other year since I moved back to the U.S. I can attest to the ignorance about U.S. beer that exists there. I used to think it was the exclusive domain of arrogant (!) Europeans. No more.

And while I have found a handful of very good German-style beers brewed here in the U.S., I simply disagree with the ubiquity you speak of. However, I can attest to being "amazed" at many of the U.S. versions of German beers that win awards: Canoe Paddler as the best Koelsch, Tree Hugger as the best Alt, the list literally goes on and on....

 

I suppose my question would be how does the German brews distributed here compare with the beer being made available in Germany? Freshness is always my concern, and I saw a post where Jack mentioned 4 months as his cutoff for buying. 4 months old beer isn't fresh product, and Fest beers bought now brewed in Aug is not fresh product. So I hate old stale IPA's, does German beer imported here get a fair shake in regard to freshness or lack of it? Are there American versions that are fresh that out do their imported counterparts? Time and distance is a problem IMO, OMB dates their bottles who else does? Are German brewers regulated to any degree with dating?

 

I'm just gonna throw my hat in the ring with the OP here. There are some styles that German breweries do amazingly well....I love a good Hefeweizen or Rauchbier as much as the next guy, but I enjoy being in America simply due to the variety we have here. I frequent Germany, and enjoy every moment I am there....but I don't think there is a beer market in the world that compares to the US.

Also, I don't think the OP was crazy to pose the question.....look at the top 100 beers on this site; there is one German beer I think? Versus what I would guess is in excess of eighty America brews. This doesn't prove that the quality of German beer is lacking in any way (I think we all know it is not), but it says something about public opinion. At the end of the day to each their own of course, but I think there is an argument to be made for the American market.

 

It says something about American public opinion. This is an American website.

 

True, but I think that many individuals on this site are from other areas of the world, at least from what I have seen. Besides, I think you can count many more Belgium beers on that list....somehow they beat the odds.

 

Does this mean you may not open in Berlin after all?

You said in an earlier post that you have had beers in Germany that are "THAT good". Do you mind sharing which beers?

Finally, the NY Times had an article last year about craft beer taking root in Berlin. Have you managed to find any of the craft beer brewers within Berlin?

 

To expand on the point made by @rollom , the statistics tell you something about the opinions of a tiny tiny portion of (mainly) American beer drinkers and their attitudes (and whims) towards a fraction of what beer is out there. In addition, their attitudes towards German vs Belgian beer and any disparities between what US beer, German beer and Belgian beer is sold here. Not saying the list has no merit, it has plenty, but its limitations are just as plentiful.

 

We still plan to open in Berlin.

I've only been drinking non-traditional German beers of late. It's been way too long since I've had access to "THAT good" traditional German beers...they are hard to find here in Berlin. Plenty of hefes to be certain. Possible to find schwarz biers and helles and koelsch too, but I'm just not personally into those styles. I can recognize the differences between the truly great ones and the mediocre ones in that I really enjoy about a half glass of a truly great one, and I can't be bothered with wanting more than a dismissive sip of a mediocre one.

Yes, I pretty much know all those guys in the article. Most of them were at our unveiling event in July, and I'm frequently found at their bars and brewpubs in the evenings. They are the ones responsible for making this city live-able beer-wise!

 

Yes there are non-American members of this site, but I don't know if there are "many". There are a handful who regularly contribute to the main forums, but look at the activity in the regional forums - the various US forums vastly outweigh the rest of the world in terms of volume. And looking at beers listed on here, there are hundreds and hundreds from the UK (where I'm from) that are not listed at all, and I can only imagine Germany is on a similar boat. Together that would imply a relatively small number of active, non-US members.

As for Belgian beers doing well in the top 250 (which we all agree is the be all and end all of measuring quality in beer) - is that because they're the best? Or because they tend to be:

1. High ABV or,
2. Sour and,
3. Tend to almost always be bottled (not the case for a massive amount of UK beer, and a large amount of German beer)

i.e. they make beers that American beer geeks fawn over, that are also more readily available, since they are bottled

 

I am certainly not claiming that the rankings here dictate absolute rule of quality.... even went out of my way to mention that it is a reflection of public opinion rather than saying it was about that. I would have to say that your point regarding availability seems a bit fallacious, as most of these higher ranking beers are difficult to come by. I don't know how you intend on measuring "best" when you seem to be dismissive of high abv and sours....what makes these worse characteristics to judge on than hoppiness or other tastes?

I think that one things we can agree on is that taste is subjective, and that is difficult to measure. Perhaps the best market is the one supplying the most options to accommodate the highest number of tastes and subtle variations within, which I would contend is still the US market. I have been to many areas of the world and none seem able to compete with the sheer variety we have here and there is something to be said for that.

 

I recognize that you directed your questions to Mr. herrburgess but I figured I would provide some input.

A few quick points:

For the vast majority of German style beers, freshness is key! The majority of German beer styles are fragile beers and they are best consumed fresh; beers like Kolsch, Alt, Helles, Pils, Dunkel, etc.

Now freshness has two aspects to it: time in the bottle and how the beer was handled and maintained during transport & storage. For example, exposure to higher temperatures (e.g., 95 degrees and above) will greatly accelerate the staling of beer. It is important that the beer be maintained cool within the shipping containers on the ship and at the variety of distribution warehouses. Pilsner Urquell has an excellent Freshness Initiative where they keep the beer cool throughout the distribution chain,

“So I hate old stale IPA's, does German beer imported here get a fair shake in regard to freshness or lack of it?” Since I have zero purview into how beer is maintained during transport & storage my only window for observing freshness is bottle dating. If I am able to find bottle of German beers that are only a few months old I buy them; I have had good luck here. Lately I have been purchasing more German beers via draft vs. bottles. My assumption is that kegs of beer are handled expeditiously and conscientiously kept cold. So far this strategy had worked for me; I have not had any German draft products that have tasted ‘off’.

“Are there American versions that are fresh that out do their imported counterparts?” I am lucky that there are a number of local breweries and brewpubs near me that make high quality German styles and since they are local I am able to consistently drink them fresh. I frequently go to the Sly Fox and Victory brewpubs and drink German style beers that are likely only a week or so old. A number of other local brewpubs make high quality German style beers: Iron Hill, Triumph, Barren Hill, etc. I also drink packaged German style beers from Troegs, Stoudts, Neshaminy Creek, etc.

“Time and distance is a problem IMO,..” I agree 100% there!

“…OMB dates their bottles who else does?” Weihenstephaner and Jever also date their beers. There are others but I can’t think of them off the top of my head.

“Are German brewers regulated to any degree with dating?” Not for the export market. One of the frustrating things to me is that there are breweries in Germany who date their beers for German consumption but do not date the bottles they export to the US.

Cheers!

 

Yup - US wins on sheer variety. No doubt there. One could argue there are more important things than variety when it comes to beer, but that's another topic.

As for high rated beers being hard to get - agreed as well. Point is that Fou Foune, Westy XII and LP Kriek (mentioning these beers as they are the three highest rated Belgians in the Top 250), although harder to come by, are still at least attainable here in the US (I don't trade and have tried them all within a 5 mile radius of my home in Brooklyn). There are plenty of UK and German beers that are not bottled, and would be impossible for someone in the US to try, without traveling to Europe and drinking them at or near the source. So pointing to the top 250, and using it as anything other than a tool for seeing what American beer geeks like to drink, is... fallacious

Edit - as to me being dismissive about high ABV and sour - I'm not. Simply pointing out that the top 250 is full of beers with these characteristics. And you're right - hoppy is one as well. I just didn't mention that, as hoppy is the domain of the US brewery, and I was respondiong to your point about Belgians. But look at the top 250 - remove anything that's sour, aggressively-hopped, high-ABV or barrel-aged, and what do you have left? Likely not much. Which is an additional reason why you don't see a lot of German or UK beers on there.

 

So you're saying that should I somehow lose our little wager I only need to send half a crate?

 

I would agree that the bottling has a pretty strong impact on all this as well. I guess at the end of the day after having traveled, I find myself relieved to be back in the US where I can have a great hefe, followed by a great IPA, and then a great stout.....and have fantastic version of each of these every day of the week without repeating a beer if i want. I love Germany, as a country and as a beer producer, but I find my palate growing bored after too much time there.

As for there being more important things than variety I would agree....although trying to decide what that is on a scale grander than my own taste becomes tough.

 

Berlin's a great city, but it's definitely not much of a beer town, at least not compared to others in the south and along the Rhine. Hopefully Stone can change that.

Anyway, I think there are lots of good German beers in the US, you just have to hunt for them. There are pockets in PA and WI, but they tend to otherwise be scattered in random places.

I think it’s probably due to craft beer’s rebellion against bad beer back in the 80’s. They wanted to get as far from fizzy yellow beer as possible. For better or worse, German beers are far closer to those styles than British (or early US craft) styles. After all, American macros are essentially a bastardized pilsner at their core. At the same time, it does seem like we’re getting a groundswell of brewers that are embracing German lager styles. When done well, it’s probably as close as most people will get to the authentic thing. I do agree with @herrburgess that it’s half about the beer and half about the experience, too. I fully admit there’s a little “Red Stripe Effect” going on with a fresh helles in a summer biergarten, and I embrace that.

 

I completely see your angle for general attitudes and opinions.

My aim was a bit more narrow, however, wherein avid American BAs are claiming with a straight face that American versions of German styles are just as good as the best German examples of those styles. That's the part that I find arrogant, especially if the opinionated person has never tried the best German examples.

If the statement was flipped, in this narrower reading, it would involve Germans thinking that their German breweries' attempts at a West Coast IPA, for example, are as good or better than those brewed somewhere around San Diego. In addition, they hold that opinion without having been to the U.S. Now I haven't tried a German attempt at a West Coast IPA, so I won't pre-judge, but I'm going to be skeptical that they are as good.

 

"I full admit there’s a little “Red Stripe Effect” going on with a fresh helles in a summer biergarten, and I embrace that."

Yea verily!!

Cheers!

 

When you combine drinking a Mass of Augustiner Helles with sitting in their Keller, then, yes, the experience is heightened. Doesn't mean that their Helles isn't world-class -- and the absolute paragon of the style -- regardless.

P.S. I also dislike Red Stripe, either on the beach or in a bar.

 

I suppose, but that would really only make you half an apologist, and we know that's not your stripe

Lots of good insights here, particularly in the last paragraph. I really do think there's some inherent questioning among some of the "craft" community re: fizzy yellow German beer, given our, perhaps, less than stellar history with such beer, or approximations thereof. Really do hope that changes over time, because good fizzy yellow beer and good other beer share the inherent quality of being, well, good. And I like good beer.

This does highlight an interesting phenomonen I've noticed in this thread, though. The American craft drinker may say, "German beer is boring. I want more variety. I want more pronounced taste. Blah, blah, blah." They place a higher value on more common American styles, say IPAs. The Germanophile may say, "American beer is too focused on variety. And the styles they're good at are so over-the-top. I prefer subtle taste. Blah, blah, blah." Inherent in these takes is an underlying tension between the relative value of each style of beer. And this is where the debate can go no further, IMO. How can we reasonably compare American IPAs to German Helles? It's not a discussion worth having, on either end of the spectrum. I honestly don't care if you love the bold flavors of American IPAs, or the nuanced subtleties of German Helles, because trying to compare them is a fools game.

In short...what the hell are we doing here?