Wolves & People

I threw down the cash - I've never participated in such a venture and it seems like fun where the upside heavily outweighs the risk. There's also something beautiful about spending the cash now, completely forgetting about it, and then getting a ton of beer for free!

 

That's just it- crowd-sourcing has for-profit businesses acting like non-profits. These guys aren't in it to donate their proceeds to charity. Beer is big business, and craft beer is grabbing 2-3% of the overall beer market share every year. I'm not a fan of the way crowd-sourcing shifts $'s away from true non-profits into hands of folks who either don't want to spend their own money (Stone), don't want to take on the responsibility of a loan, or can't/won't get a loan or private investors. There is a third level, where Kickstarter is used as a marketing tool and is only a small % of total fundraising, and that just complicates the morals of "giving" even further.

I do prefer that businesses (most of which want to one day get rich off their products) prove themselves before taking money with no strings attached. My own personal rule is to never support a crowd-source for more than $20 and never accept any rewards in return. I also try to match my "donation" to a true non-profit at some point during the same month.

 

We're at opposite ends of this spectrum, and that is totally ok.

 

To be clear, I really hate the concept of 'kickstarter', as what i've typically seen is very little or nothing in return for your donation/investment.

i view this as a cellar club, with the only difference being that there is some additional lead time and there is a risk (of some level) associated with what the beer will actually be. I think it's smart for this specific venture that has a proven commodity (the brewer) but there is no way I would participate if it was a complete unknown.

 

I don't understand how they're acting like non-profits. They're soliciting money in exchange for a product. Period. That you don't necessarily know the product or the quality of that product doesn't matter in this instance. They're not donating their proceeds to charity, but neither are you. You're paying for something, and they outline what you get (even if loosely), and what you have to spend to get it. You add that item to your cart, and check out. I don't at all understand your thoughts regarding crowd-sourcing shifting money away from non-profits. I can invest my money in kick starter and still contribute regularly to the Humane Society.

In case many haven't realized, this place has already spent a good deal of their money on getting this started. As do most places that do kick starters. They're looking for additional financial input, not for the general public to fund their entire business venture. Not only that, but it provides an opportunity to create buzz and interest, and give people a chance to buy in to what they're doing and feel like they've helped make an impact, no matter how small. Potentially getting some nice product in return is no doubt a nice aspect as well. The fact that everyone thinks the brewer from Jester King, given his resume, hasn't "proven himself." is astonishing to me. Most breweries are started by people who've left another brewery to strike out on their own. They're good at what they do, and simply endeavor to do it on their own under their own flag. Unless this guy mysteriously forgets how to brew beer, I'm not quite sure what this guy has to prove other than he can brew in Oregon what he brewed in Texas. Had I never heard of this guy before, I'd be quite reluctant to put this kind of money forth.

Put it this way...if Jean from Tired Hands, another successful brewer, was to say...open a bigger brewery at a new location and was generating some additional funds through a kickstarter to do so...I'd happily put money towards it. What am I supposed to do...be sceptical as to whether or not he can continue to do at a new facility what he's presently doing now? I really don't see the downside. Nor would I see the downside in putting more towards a kickstarter if his head brewer decided to keep making great beer under his own flag.

 

Reuben's did a kickstarter that wasn't so lofty. That worked very well, I'd say.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1026612474/reubens-brews

I should note that I contributed $25 to it.

 

Yeah, I went back and forth between those two options. There just wasn't enough detail as to what you were getting with the $300 buy-in. With the $350 option, you know you're getting 2x each of six releases. This made sense for me as I was splitting a membership.

 

Correction- I treat crowd-sourcing as a donation. (This is just what works for me, not right nor wrong.) Granted, I don't have hundreds of dollars to put towards a brewery (if I did, I'd probably scrape together the $5k or so it takes to become an actual partner in a brewery project I believe in). I usually give $10-20 to a project I believe in and wish them good luck. No rewards, no expectations except that they'll put that $10 to the best use possible. That is crowd-sourcing.

What's happening with new breweries setting up reserve memberships isn't crowd-sourcing- it's for-profit retailing ahead of production. There isn't anything necessarily wrong with that (other than it sets up demand that your business plan had better account for right off the bat). I do feel like it gets abused in some situations (ahem, Stone) and ultimately leads to inflated bottle prices at some brueries, but if an individual believes in a brewer and brewery enough then by all means, go for it. In some situations, the pressure might actually force the brewer to put out some amazing beers right off the bat.

 

can someone link to a thread/article on the references to stone? i must have missed whatever thats about

 

This is as simple as can you afford $350 or not - and are you willing to put that money up on what will probably be excellent beer.

I love Ale Apothecary, but I might buy literally one bottle a year because of the price. That doesn't mean no one should buy his beer though. Let those who can obviously afford it, buy it and leave me all the sub-$15 dollar Belgians, Saisons, and wilds.

I take solace in the fact that I am getting way more value than the other guy - as i know the other guy is taking solace in the fact that he gets possession of very expensive, delicious, and rare beer.

Not sure why there is still debate over whether the kickstarter is right or wrong. The market decided.

Side note: the kickstarter reward that blows my mind is the Brauler Growler. 4 people have paild $150 bucks for a growler that you can get for $45 at Full Sail. Granted, you do get a free Growler fill that is apparently worth a hundred bucks.

 

I agree that there are variables that can provide obstacles. But I have to believe a world class brewer is a world class brewer for their ability to do what they do, under a variety of circumstances. There are noteworthy gypsy brewers abound that pretty much brew their recipes on everyone and their grandmother's brewing setups all across the world using all manner of foreign equipment, water, ingredients, etc...and they seem pretty adept at cranking out good stuff under enormous varieties of conditions. I guess I'm going to stick with the notion that I think this guy can too. Perhaps I'm wrong. I just don't feel as skeptical about is as some, I guess.

 

Let me correct this for you.

"4 people have paid $45 for a Brauler Growler and donated $105 to W&P to help get their brewery up and running. Granted, if you only wanted to pay $45 for the Brauler, you could get it at Full Sail. Apparently, however, these 4 people wanted more than the Brauler."

 

A person donated $105 dollars to a brewery. That sentence is asinine UNLESS they are relatives of the owners and just want to pitch in.

But hey, At least they aren't Upland

 

People don't make donations unless they're relatives? I don't understand this at all. I can't even begin to tell you the number of people and organizations I've donated money to where I've had zero relationship whatsoever. And I didn't get shit in return other than the satisfaction of knowing I was helping someone achieve their goals and ambitions. I don't know about you...but I wouldn't be where I am today without the infinite amount of patience and support I got from people that didn't owe me a damned thing, and got nothing in return from me for the help they gave.

 

I donate money to non profit organizations, charities, and people who I am close with and believe in (edit: and to those who need a hand up out of a dark place). I'm a fairly altruistic person but am just trying to grasp the concept of donating $105 to a for profit brewery, whose mission is just to make great beer. I am a little more discerning with my funds than that, but I am not gonna tell anyone how to live there life and how to spend their money.

So I maintain donating $105 to a brewery whose mission is just to make great beer is asinine to me.

 

I'm guessing Caleb didn't BM the staff to have the thread reopened?

There's a shocker. lol

 

Great beer has been a part of my life for a few years now. It's brought me in contact with people I'd have just never met through any other means. I've got more good memories associated with the people and places beer has brought me in touch with, than I can eve begin to count. Beer, in short, has provided me with an incredible amount of happiness. I have no doubt that I'm far from the only person that shares this sentiment. Beer is the one thing people both wealthy and not, seem to find a way to enjoy. We drink it when we're up...we drink it when we're down. Beer's truly one of the glues that keeps us all together and keeps the wheels from completely falling off at times. I've got $105 to put towards making sure it stays that way. It's more than just beer, to me. Perhaps I'm an idiot for seeing it that way, but so be it.