"Trade With Caution: ghost_pepper78 and janky."

Before the advent of the trading feedback system, traders were judged by the community based on their actions, and one's reputation was the most important thing on this site. Now, there seem to be all types of shenanigans going on, and as long as no "official trade" was accepted, lots of people just want to blow it off. This simply allows it to happen again and again.

Rule of thumb was always that once addresses were exchanged, the trade deal was sealed. If you were even 1% unsure, hold off on giving your address. Things have changed, and definitely for the worse.

/rant. All you damn kids get off my lawn.

 

I care. Trading is becoming more and more of a risk. I feel the OP did us a favor by posting about the first guy.

 

yep. a man's only as good as his word. i'm glad to know which people here are ok making a deal, confirming a deal, and then backing out without any sort of recourse. yeah, shit happens, but it's how we handle it that shows our true colors. if i drop the ball, i make it right.

 

Really? Because the OP isn't out any beer or $. He has taken no loss. He did not "risk" anything.

It's one thing if he sent a box and received nothing in return. It's an entirely different thing if both parties aren't out anything. If you do you homework on people, message their past trading partners, and take your time setting up a deal, you can greatly minimize "risk".

IMO OP was a little quick on the Bad-Trader thread.

 

i don't know if the OP had any other irons in the fire, but what if there was someone else looking to do the same trade that he declined because he thought he had the deal locked up? creating more work for someone else because you didn't live up to your end (even if nothing was shipped) isn't the right way to treat people. maybe i'm old school.

 

There's potential opportunity cost right? If you're holding bottles for someone you think you have a trade lined up with and having to pass on other offers etc. (Not really applicable in this case but just in general)

 

Respectfully disagree. I have enough hassle with important crap in my life that I want stupid crap like beer to be as painless as possible. If there is someone out there that doesn't ship, doesn't communicate, etc, I'd like to know so I can avoid that hassle altogether.
People have different opinions --- some equate bad trader to thief. I don't. I equate a bad trader to someone who disappears, stops communicating, doesn't hold up their end, regardless of whether anyone lost beer.
Yes, people can do their homework, and to me, part of my homework is searching the threads for a possible traders name, and seeing if there are any threads like this about them.

 

can some one offer up another word definition? I found that mildly more exciting.

 

When we lock this down @blue-dream @F2brewers maybe we should change the title to something like "when is a trade a trade?" I actually think this debate is important, since there's obviously confusion/difference of opinion.

 

My two cents (which ain't worth that I can promise ya):

@janky owned up to his mistake in a bit of a poor manner, but owned up to it nonetheless. I've got to say that the transcript of the discussion does seem a "tad" aggressive, not by the asking to accept the request, but by throwing out OP's address so quickly. That being said, janky could have simply said, "I'm not ready to confirm this deal is done, I'll let you know after I think about it," so it still falls to him since he returned fire with his address. Also, to be fair to OP, probably the only reason it seems even a bit aggressive is because I'm reading in the context of this thread where it's been accused of being aggressive.

Personally, I'm not sure I would have started a thread about it, but I probably would have continued the conversation with janky via BM and explained why I had a problem with what he did. Depending upon how this communication was handled, I may have started a thread. At the very least, i have a number of friends and reg trading partners on here that would have gotten a BM to warn them.

Also, in a vacuum, I don't really have a problem with Janky trading another person's beer and not mentioning that earlier. The problem lies in his believing he has authority to move the beers but then finding out he doesn't. Anytime I am dealing with a new trading partner, I have no clue if the beers are his or not, but it is reasonable for me to assume that if he's offering them, he is able to trade them. Similar to trading in-distro beers but not having picked them up. When I trade WB Gose, I say I have it, but it's at the store. As it gets closer to this time of year, I try to couch any negotiations with the caution that the trade is dependent upon being able to find Gose since production has stopped. Janky probably doesn't need to give his life story on the beers (and doubt OP wanted one), but if he doesn't have authority over the beers, he shouldn't offer them without some caution.

One of the more interesting questions that comes from this is when is a trade agreed upon now? A lot of us would default to the answer that a trade is consummated upon the mutual exchange of addresses. However, given the advent of the feedback system, I would urge BAs to consider evolving this notion to a trade is consummated when it is accepted by both parties. In fact, perhaps i would urge BAs to NOT exchange addresses UNTIL the trade is accepted. If we operated under this "rule," we would all know when a trade is agreed upon and act accordingly.

Regardless, sounds like I need to trade with @TampaRainman and hope @janky has learned a lesson. It appears at least on documented feedback that janky is early into his "career" so I hope it's smooth sailing from this point forward.

 

Then trading is not for you. Totally serious. I don't mean that to sound offensive... so please not take it that way. But trading is not always easy.

 

Bucephalus was the horse of Alexander the Great. That's pretty cool, no?

 

I don't take offense at all, and I sort of get what you're saying, but look at what I said. I want trading to be painless as possible. Is there anyone on this site that doesn't want that. Who WANTS it to be painful? Thats just dumb.

 

I feel like a lot of aspects of beer have become a pain: trying to find special releases, waiting in lines, getting up early, trying to adjust work/personal schedule for beer events, trading, seeing totally unacceptable behavor in order to get certain releases, mules, dealing with other people's opinions because you don't like something they do/vice versa, and flat out beer snobbery. Its part of the game

The only way to avoid these pains is to stick with locally available shelf beers, with the occasional chance that you stumble upon something special. I'm seriously thinking I may go this route before long

 

And if you're lucky you make some genuine friends and great trading partners with whom you'll share many beers with in the future. Take the good with the bad I guess

 

I completely agree with this. I have always understood that when addresses are exchanged the trade is finalized but now we have a formal and public way to enter into a trade with the feedback system. I believe as a community we should revaluate which we are going to use to determine if a trade agreement has been finalized.

 

That is very true

 

I have said this before and I will say it again, my personal opinion is that no thread should be started unless someone got screwed out of money or beer.

 

No, I think I'm good. That short essay I wrote on the first page summed up how I feel, and I pretty much don't respect how blown out of proportion this has gotten. I'm being an adult about it, filing away the lessons learned, and I have deleted our BM and set him to ignore. There is nothing else that needs to be done. It's in the past as far as I'm concerned.
Some people just don't see eye to eye on things.

I BM'ed him Sunday in time to avoid him shipping out a box, which I feel was plenty of heads up.
I also told him in advance that I wasn't ready to accept the trade because I didn't have sufficient materials, Honestly, I did not want him getting all upset or paranoid if I didn't end up getting a box out to him until tues/weds because of that. I can only imagine what a sh*t-storm that would've been.
He told me to go ahead and accept the trade anyway, and condescendingly gave me instructions on where to find the accept option.

I didn't appreciate how he went about it -- it felt like he was trying to force me to hurry up and do it, or boss me around. As a trader, I should have the right to cancel a trade if I don't feel it's going in a positive direction (so long as nothing has been already sent). I have every right to call off a trade if I feel I'm being rushed, talked down to, or disrespected. Those aren't the kind of people I want to create trade relationships with - and I'm not going to risk negative feedback over those types.

He isn't out any money, he isn't out any beers, no one has ripped anyone off.

I'm honestly glad that I did not accept the trade. I've also received numerous BMs from him linking my ISO as well, which helped me out, as a couple of people have BM'ed me offering things I was searching for. So thank you.

I absolutely feel bad about flaking on the trade after saying it'd be cool, and I have definitely learned a lesson not to be overly generous with friend's beers (only my own).
I've stated that numerous times. Ive also learned not to give out my address because some people take that as a "set-in-stone" deal.

Beyond that, I'm over it, and to be blunt, I think anymore carrying on about it, pasting BM snippets, name-calling, is all just unnecessary drama.
I can't, for the life of me, understand why someone with 52 successful trades over an 8 month span would be THIS upset over someone backing out before any boxes were sent.
A simple "wow dude, F you" in BM would've been plenty in our situation -- not a 2 page call out thread, cut and pasting our convo.

Bottom line:
I trade plenty on other venues, and have had people vouch for me in here. I trustee for 3 people for a society. I send boxes to regular trade partners on blind faith, just because I want the people I trade with regularly to get to try good stuff. I don't ask for anything in return.

If anyone truly does not want to trade with me over this thread, I seriously will not lose sleep over it. I've apologized, but this is nowhere near as big of an ordeal as it's being made out to be.

I understand he is a good trader, but getting this upset and lashing out this hard over someone backing out of a trade is just kind of throwing a tantrum in my opinion.
I'm not going to continue apologizing anymore than I have, and I will file away the lesson learned for future trades.

Nothing else to say.

 

I think that if someone doesn't have any packing materials, the authority to trade beers, or even the beers themselves, then maybe they shouldn't be throwing ISO's up in the trade forum. It doesn't really seem difficult to me.