when to add honey to saison

After high krausen. My meads are a dump-and-stir method. No heat involved. Edit" Don't stir your beer after adding the honey. It'll figure itself out. Some yeast nutrient would be a good idea.

How much honey and what kind are you using?

 

are you using pasteurized honey? I would be worried about adding other organisms. I know it is too late this time, but can it just be added to the end of the boil to sterilize? Lots of bugs can live in honey. Disclaimer: I have never brewed with it, only read about it in books.

 

Actually: http://www.benefits-of-honey.com/honey-properties.html

 

Pulled from an article. It is common knowledge. Look in any medical review. This is why you cannot give honey to kids under 2yo.

"Bacteria, moulds and yeast microbes are also found in honey. The presence of these microorganisms has the potential to affect honey quality and safety. Fortunately, most bacteria and microbes cannot grow or reproduce in honey but spore forming microorganisms, such asBacillus cereus, Clostridium perfringens and Clostridium botulinum, can survive in honey as spores for a long time"

 

fortunately we are not giving honey, much less honey saison, to children. over two and otherwise. people have been brewing with honey, fermenting honey and eating honey... the unpasteurized kind... for as long as civilization.

adding honey to the secondary or in the primary after fermentation is complete is typical. do not boil the honey.
Cheers.

 

The other option is to pasteurize the honey prior to adding it to the fermenter; in this way you will kill the unwanted microorganisms.

Cheers!

 

Also the fact the you are adding honey to an acid and alcohol solution along with billions of yeast in their "prime" I would add the honey straight and keep the flavor/aroma profile of the honey than neutering it by pasteurizing it.

Add honey after high krausen.

 

When I've added honey to any beer, I've done it after high krausen. Just pour it in, don't stir. Yes, it will sink to the bottom. Who cares? It'll reach equilibrium in the beer and be eaten by the yeasties in short order. Don't pasteurize unless you plan on serving this beer to people with compromised immune systems. And they probably shouldn't be drinking beer in the first place. The acid and alcohol in the beer will keep whatever microorganisms that are in the honey in check, and the yeast will out compete them for nutrients.

 

I added it into the carboy after cooling the wort but didn't get the amount of honey aroma I was looking for.

I think the best time to add it would be at bottling as priming sugar. Honey is pretty volatile so it's really easy to lose the aroma.

 

s

While this is true, i.e., that there are some bacteria in honey with bad-guy potential, people have been brewing unpasteurized meads forever without cases of botulism or other bacteria-related ailments. The best explanation for this (I believe) is that these organisms are slow growers that are easily outcompeted by organisms like yeast, especially when yeast is present in such great abundance, as in when you pitch a bunch of yeast. As the yeast grow, they lower the pH and raise the alcohol content, further suppressing these bacteria. They never grow to the point where they are a problem.

A baby's digestive system, in contrast to a pitch of yeast, has lower populations of organisms that can compete with the potential bad guys in honey. An adult has no problem with unpasteurized honey because adults have well-developed microflora in their digestive tracts.

 

Peter, you posted: “As the yeast grow, they lower the pH and raise the alcohol content, further suppressing these bacteria.”

Do you have an opinion on the potential problem that wild yeast which is present in unpasteurized honey poses? Needless to say but the lower pH and presence of alcohol will not likely be a deterrent for the wild yeast. There are no health risks here, just risks of off-flavors from the wild yeast.

Cheers!

Jack

 

I imagine that some wild yeasts are present, but at much lower concentrations than will have an impact. I suppose the thing to do would be to dilute some unpasteurized honey to mead concentrations and see if it spontaneously ferments and then do some cell counts to investigate who is present.

PS: The natural habitat of yeasts is outside of my expertise, so I'm just doing what I do best - speculating!

 

Peter,

Permit me to do some speculating.

Yeast strains (wild and domestic) have varying capabilities to metabolize certain sugars. For example, metabolizing maltotriose. It is my understanding that most domestic brewer’s yeast can consume about half the maltotriose present. This remaining maltotriose is a potential food source for the multiple wild yeast strains which may be present in the unpasteurized honey. So, despite the fact that there may be more brewer’s yeast cells present would not inhibit the multiple wild yeast stains from metabolizing the remaining maltotriose and producing off-flavors. Needless to say but this presumes that the multiple wild yeast strains are capable of metabolizing maltotriose.

There may be other example of sugars beyond maltotriose that applies here but I can only think of maltotriose at this point in time. Oh, maybe some wild yeast strains can process dextrins that are not processed by brewer’s yeast? I know that Brett can metabolize dextrins.

From my perspective the fundamental issue is that if there is any ‘food’ available that is not consumed by the brewer’s yeast then any wild yeast present will take advantage of the situation and consume that ‘food’; and produce off-flavors concurrently.

Cheers!

Jack

 

Perhaps reasonable speculation. But the fact is that people who use unpasteurized honey in beer and mead do not experience infections (and/or off flavors) at higher rates than people who don't. Or if they do, the increase in risk is immeasurable. In practical terms, it's a non problem.

 

Good idea, Jack. I would think that yeast and bacteria might be able to act on the residual carbohydrates in the beer once the honey is diluted in the beer. It is a question of whether they get started in that low pH high alcohol environment. Certainly wild yeasts seem to have some potential here. I've never been one to cellar beer for a long time, but I wonder if any of those white house honey ales are still around, and how they have fared. Perhaps some mead making types know what happens to an aged braggot. My only braggot did not last long enough to address this.

 

“…I wonder if any of those white house honey ales are still around, and how they have fared.” Well, here is the thing. If they were brewed as per the White House recipe the honey was boiled:

“5. Add the honey and boil for 5 more minutes.”

Above from: http://www.whitehouse.gov/blog/2012/09/01/ale-chief-white-house-beer-recipe

I have personally brewed with honey many. many times but I have always added the honey at the end of boil (to sterilize the honey).

The real question is: how many homebrewers have added honey to beer post boil and taken note of how those beers may have ‘evolved’ over time.

On the topic of braggot, it is my understanding that just like a honey addition to beer there are various methods for adding the honey. For example a braggot can be brewed with a flameout addition of the honey. When did you add your honey to your braggot?

Cheers!

Jack