Hoppy Lagers - Would you like more?

If we are venturing into IPL territory, you can start and stop with Otter Creeks Citra Mantra. Man, that was one nice citrus-hopped beer (ale vs. lager, who cares).

 

Theoretically, or in agreement with prevailing wisdom, that all sounds great, but in practice I have not found this to be the case. My lager yeast strain (Augustiner) has a lower degree of attenuation than my ale yeast strain (Chico), especially with certain mash schedules. Chico when fermented at a cold temp can yield a beer that is very "clean", especially when dry hops are at play. And as far as the precipitation of proteins and polyphenols - tank time, temp and finings tend to be an equalizer here. Other variables, such as mash schedule and malt selection will also impact the final beer.

So the "drier/cleaner" attribute is not as black and white as ale vs lager strain. We could also pick two different Ale and Lager strains and have a much different result, and one that would fit your description, but that is not an absolute.

And when I was quoted as saying the hops obliterate any lager characteristics? I stand by that. Lager yeast has a wonderful subtle quality that modern hop varieties will overwhelm. That fresh sulfur smell you get from an Augustiner Helles when enjoyed at the source - that is not standing up to the cat box impact of Citra.

 

I REALLY liked the Sam Smith Organic Lager. If that beer could be sold for cheaper, I'd buy in much more mass quantity, but at $4.99 a pint, its just a guilty pleasure on occasion.

 

Sixpoint the Crisp and Victory Prima Pils are go to's during the slightly warmer months, SN Nooner Pils is sure to join that group as well, i much prefer this style over wheat beers ❨not that i don't enjoy a good one of those as well). would love to see more of these released as spring/ summer seasonals, if not year round brews.

 

Citra Mantra was so drinkable and delicious. Hope they bring that one back

 

Delicious beer, I agree. But pretty much ZERO of the typical lager characteristics in that one. The poster child for how hops overwhelm...

 

What I've found is, even more so than ales, lagers are best fresh when hoppy. The lager yeast really takes over when they get older. I do like me some hoppy lagers/pilsners though. The Crisp, Saint Archer Hoppy Pils, and Fathom IPL are great.

 

“Many IPAs are clean, have low to no fruity flavors from esters (low levels are acceptable though), and they can and do certainly have a dry finish. Does a lager yeast cause a beer to be cleaner, with NO fruity flavors, and a drier finish than when an ale yeast is used? Sure. “ Awesome! It would appear that you and I have some common agreement here! An IPL brewed with a common wort and hop schedule will indeed have a drier finish, a lower amount of fruity flavors (esters), etc,.

“Is it harder (if at all possible depending on how heavily hopped the beer is) to distinguish what is used in an IPA/IPL? I would say yes, you would say no.” I must confess why you would state a hopping level negates the ability to distinguish the finish of a beer, the lack of esters, the aspect of “clean/crisp”, etc., is puzzling to me. It may be as you say it is a difference in palate but I am puzzled nonetheless.

“So, are these characteristics technically IN the beer that uses the lager yeast? Yes.” Again, awesome!! Once again you and I are in agreement!!!!!!

“Jack Hendler from Jack's Abby replies: "For extra-hoppy American-hopped IPLs, a neutral 2-row malt works best to minimize competing flavors. Why buy expensive and unique base malt when those flavors will only get muted out and negatively affect the hop character?" I am very confused why you are mentioning this. The vast majority of IPAs and DIPAs are brewed using neutral 2-row malt. In other words there is marked similarity between IPAs and IPLs in using the same base malt.

“Hendler replies, "Balance can come in many forms, it's not just a malt-to-hop balance. You can balance bitterness with aroma, yeast flavor with hops, malt with alcohol, etc. Most of our IPLs tend to minimize malt and highlight hops.” Again, I am confused why you are posting this statement. IPAs also minimize malt and highlight hops.”

Cheers!

 

Chris, I appreciate your contribution.

I have brewed with the California yeast stain probably a hundred times but I have never brewed with the Augustiner strain. I have homebrewed with many lager yeast strains and they have all been more attenuative than the California yeast strain.

Your point of mash schedule may have some relevance here but I really don’t know. I can comment that I follow a common mash for my homebrewing and I have always obtained more attenuation for brewing lagers vs. brewing with the California yeast strain.

The California yeast strain is indeed more neutral than many other yeast strains but I can certainly perceive more esters from this strain vs. the numerous lager strains that I have brewed with (fermented at 50° F).

“And as far as the precipitation of proteins and polyphenols - tank time, temp and finings tend to be an equalizer here.” I have no idea what “tank time” means relative to making ales. I personally lager my lager beers for 6-7 weeks at cold temperatures (less than 38° F). I am not aware of anybody brewing IPAs using the California yeast strain doing the same.

“And when I was quoted as saying the hops obliterate any lager characteristics? I stand by that. Lager yeast has a wonderful subtle quality that modern hop varieties will overwhelm. That fresh sulfur smell you get from an Augustiner Helles when enjoyed at the source - that is not standing up to the cat box impact of Citra.” Fair enough. The best that I can say is that I do not use the Augustiner strain but I do indeed think there is a difference between ale and lager fermentations.

We all have differing brewhouses, differing ingredients and differing brewing process.

I still feel very confident in stating that lager yeasts and the lagering process yields:

· Lower final attenuation for a given wort

· Lower amounts of esters (less fruity flavors)

· A more ‘clean/crisp’ character from the extended lagering process

You may feel free to disagree.

Cheers!

Jack

 

I would have no problem with AALs increasing their IBUs. "Lite" beer could remain as is. I like fizzy yellow beers and would like more of a hop bite. SN Summerfest reminds me a lot of some of the AALs of yesteryear. I have no scientific data to back up this opinion.

 

Probably true, but hopefully they will eventually realize just how narrowly they are looking at something that they claim to enjoy.

The way the original question was framed, though, didn't seem to be just about 100 IBU hop-saturated monsters. There is plenty of room to explore within reasonable striking distance of a broad 'Pilsner' category while using newer combinations of hops, and even malts. The one I mentioned earlier in this thread, Straub IPL, has done a fairly good job of walking that line; incorporating piney/resiny hop qualities into a strong but dry pale lager base. I'd like to see more beers like that, than the Jack's Abby model, myself.

 

Mmmmmmm.....readily available, cheap, hop bomb?

You say that like it's a bad thing....

 

Thank You, it takes someone to refresh my memory especially when Lagunitas is involved since Sucks, shut down ale,maximus, and Hop Stoopid are avaiable. Ill try it.

 

My point being, a beer heavy handed in hops covers up many characteristics in a beer, other than the many (wonderful!) flavors they add. Therefore, your choice of yeast OR malt (and how you handle them during the brewing process) is irrelevant, because the subtleties they add to a beer are lost in the excessive IBUs. I feel the same way about bourbon barrel-aging.

Now, if we're talking about something like Prima Pils, or other hoppier lagers that are < 50 IBUs, then I think things like malt choice and yeast do matter. I don't know if you've had Jack's Abby's Kiwi Rising (their double IPL) but you'd be hard pressed to pick out anything other than hops in that monster.

This is exactly what I'm referring to when I compare Prima Pils to Kiwi Rising in response to Jack.

Personally, I like Prima more than something like an over-hopped IPL, because I can actually tell how clean the beer is, it's perfectly dry, and Victory does a great job of bringing out the best of the German malts (admittedly I like my pilsners less hoppy than Prima, but that's a story for another day).

The issue with many IPLs, even if they are more moderate, is that many of these brewers are just throwing hops in a kettle, and are not as skilled with the rest of the brewing process (I believe @Domingo was making this point earlier in the thread). As you point out @TongoRad, there is room for experimentation, but I want the brewer to master the entire process first, before they start venturing into hop experimentation with a lager.

 

Bruery's Humulus Lager- one of a kind, can't wait for them to bottle this beer.

 

Then you haven't tried any Jack Abbys brews then, these are not my dad's lagers. If you trade they're easy and inexpensive for what they are.

 

ISO: Budweiser American Hop Bomb

 

Agree. Citra Mantra (and most IPLs for that matter) are much more similar of a beer in taste and smell to an IPA/American hopped pale ale than say a Pilsner,Helles, Vienna lager. Has mostly to do with the strain of hops used I'm sure.

 

Of course they're not typical Lagers but JA brews are immensely likable. There's only a few lagers I like that I can get fresh which is Prima, and Olde Mecklenburg, I'm afraid of aged German imports, even fest beers are how many months old as a seasonal?

 

I'm of like-mind with @AlcahueteJ on this matter. Whether it's an ale or lager that showcases American hops does not matter to me - any difference that I might be capable of discerning does not move the needle on my enjoyment of the beer. At least it hasn't yet.

When I think of hoppy lagers I think of American hops. Yes, I see pilsners as being hoppy, but I've always (well, since before the latest surge in "hoppy lagers") considered them as being hoppy. So I make a distinction between pilsners and hoppy lagers, even though someone could successfully argue that, from a technical standpoint, they are the same.